Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update - Page 2
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 132
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,183

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    I worry about "mite bombs" spreading from the 4 CF hives into the other hives in the replication groups, and obscuring the effect of managing the mites in those hives.
    Should not be a worry if the treating beekeepers are any good. They should anticipate and factor into their treatment schedule, just like i do when I get a truckload of dinks not worth putting on manuka dumped right next to me. Just got to have enough treatment in the hives to catch any invaders before they do any damage.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #22

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    You did not mention allogrooming and mite mauling. IME, these are far more useful traits because the adult bees directly attack the mites.
    Actually, I did, without mentioning them by name when I stated ‘In my limited experience any of the actual mite suppressing traits are recessive and only exist in highly inbred bees.’




    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    we have a more civil discussion if beemandan puts his cards on the table.
    I have no idea what this statement means.
    I believe our differences stem from the times that you express your opinions as though they are absolute facts. People often get the two mixed up and ordinarily it doesn’t matter. But on message boards like this those sorts of statements can mislead many less experienced beekeepers and the next thing you know another beekeeping myth has started that will bedevil us for years.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,049

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    What I find is the "TF partisans" always have a ready excuse to deny that TF bees die because of TF management, despite volumes of evidence that is precisely what happens.
    It is more accurate to say that bees heavily infested with mites die. Period. Bees that are consistently treated will live but never develop mite resistance. Mite bombs still destroy too many colonies and that includes bees that otherwise are capable of keeping mites under control. Arbitrarily picking some bees and saying they are feral and therefore good bees to keep treatment free is just as bad IMO as getting a bunch of commercial packages in early spring and refusing to treat them on the false hope they will somehow survive. That said, it is far more likely that feral bees will have mite tolerance traits.

    beemandan, whatever I state has to be in context of what I personally have experienced. My experience is that mite resistant bees are a very real option if a beekeeper is willing to put in the time to get good queens. Remember that Weaver only had 9 survivors out of 1000 colonies when they first decided to go treatment free.

    Alastair, I did not answer the question because it is very simple for anyone to search the internet for relevant documents. beemandan is just as capable of digging them out as I am. I have posted them before. Look up the work done by Kefuss, Arista, Harbo, and others. You will also find an abundance of research showing that mite treatments ultimately fail as the mites become resistant. At some predictable point in the future, we will have to rely on mite resistant bees. The only caveat is that organic acids seem to attack mites in a way that will not be easy to overcome.

    Here is one that is worth a few minutes to read. It covers almost all of the mite resistance traits identified so far. https://aristabeeresearch.org/varroa-resistance/
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    2,269

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Bees that are consistently treated will live but never develop mite resistance.
    This statement irritates me. Bees are outcrossing and "homogenize" very, very quickly. This is the "sine qua non" of their success as a species. Marla Spivak has studied this process and published papers on the rapid "extinction" of her Minn Hygenic traits in outyard apiairies.

    In order to maintain recessive traits in an obligatory outcrossing species, one has to maintain a very high culling level **ad infinitum**. The "popular" story is, "I killed thousands of hives, and now the survivors are resistant". This not how genetics works, you have to kill hives year after year, long into the infinite future.

    Kirk Webster claims a version of the popular story, but the nearby observers tell a different one. He continues to have periodic devastating crashes. That is what genetics predicts, and that is what (appears) to be happening on the ground when the "Triumphalism" is stripped away.

  6. #25

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    All hives in all treatments were requeened with queens produced by Devon Paderewski from a breeder queen in Jim Thorpe, PA in July and August, 2018. The breeder origin were wild bees in a house soffit for 4 years, removed and kept treatment free for 3 years. In a 7 year history, these bees have likely requeened multiple times, and hence are "feral".
    It is right here this experiment goes on wrong tracks. Free mated bees are kept 4 years and again free mated in a hobby beekeepers yard...


    As Margarita Lopez-U says on Twitter "these bees are not varroa resistant"

    I´m not saying that there are better TF bees in US, but for sure, I have been in the belief that there should be.



    P.S.

    VSH trait is not recessive. It is additive, F1 has half of what parents did. Lots of miss leading discussion about recessive traits in varroa resistance. If the major factors in varroa resistance would be recessive, nobody could have had any progress so far. 100% VSH bees have been bred many times in Europe, and now in Havaji too, not a single mite making offspring.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,183

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Alastair, I did not answer the question because it is very simple for anyone to search the internet for relevant documents.
    Personally though, i would still have answered the question. It's not like i just answer something one time, and that's it, for posterity.

    Something we see from time to time that i consider anti - science, is somebody makes a statement, sometimes a bold one. Somebody else says something like "got a reference?", and the other person responds, "yeah, the internet. Go search".

    To properly progress an argument and arrive at a credible conclusion, the maker of the bold statement if asked for evidence, should either provide the evidence, or, be honest and say he doesn't have any, but the statement was his opinion, observation, or whatever. This will allow any other readers, to make an informed assessment as to wether the statement is true, or possibly true.

    Not talking about what you said in particular, but the method of arguing.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,049

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    beemandan is one of the very few I would use that method of arguing with.

    Did you read the Arista page?


    you have to kill hives year after year, long into the infinite future.
    How then do you explain what happened in South Africa?
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    2,269

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post

    VSH trait is not recessive. It is additive, F1 has half of what parents did.
    This is likely true, More than 20 alleles have been identified (I believe the number is 48 in the latest genomic studies).

    The likelihood of a heterozygous queen's offspring of duplicating 48 alleles is vanishingly small, this randomization means genetics are always a very rough approximation of the parent. Why you must reselect continually in an obligate outcrossing polyandrous insect. It is not a "once and done" breeding cycle.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,183

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    How then do you explain what happened in South Africa?
    Off topic, but since you asked, my explanation would be 2 words. African bees.

    It worked in Africa, it worked for Dee, and it worked for Bee Weaver.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,049

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    That is an incorrect reading of a question that was actually addressed to JWChestnut. South African beekeepers had very little choice. Instead of continually propping up their bees with mite treatments, they let nature take its course. There is an excellent doctoral thesis written about this sequence of events. Within a few years, the bees remaining were all mite resistant. Nobody treats for mites in South Africa. I grant that mite resistant traits are less prevalent in European bees, but the traits are there and untreated populations have developed in a few cases, Primorsky bees being a good example. The consistent reason we do not all have mite resistant bees is because beekeepers continue to treat their bees propagating mite susceptible bees in massive numbers. I realize this is a dinged if you do dinged if you don't situation, but in the end, we can choose to address the problem or we can continue to use prophylaxis. You are either part of the solution, or you are the problem. If I took JWChestnut's position, I would be treating my bees right now.

    Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    2,269

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    The "triumphalism" of beating mites in South Africa by a "Bond let die" approach is not borne out by more recent surveys in South Africa.

    The 2009-11 survey (done years after the Allsop claim that mites were not an issue) show that Varroa mite was cited as the cause of loss very frequently, second only to SHB, in about 30% of the respondents cases. (and loss rates were high).

    5405bdf30cf23d9765a72ca8_pdf.jpg

    I think it is clear that there is pure magical thinking or outright fraud in the "triumphalist" claims of so-called TF successes. The claims in South Africa don't stand up to scrutiny.

    We should note that AFB has emerged as a devastating threat in the Cape Province in the last few years, as well.

    Cite: A survey of managed honey bee colony losses in the Republic of South Africa -2009 to 2011Christian W W Pirk1*, Hannelie Human1, Robin M Crewe1 and Dennis vanEngelsdor

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...9765a72ca8.pdf

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,976

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    I don't see how you you could feel sub 5% varroa losses for non migratory keepers as "high"

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,049

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    MSL, Shh, he has a drum to beat.

    Strauss et al. (2013) also confirmed the presence of varroa mites in migratory and non-migratory colonies, but they were not implicated as being causative factors for the loss of honey bee colonies.
    I won't quote more of the article, but will note that chalkbrood and Capensis takeover were highly rated reasons for colony loss. The problems with hive beetles were primarily attributed to colonies that absconded, then hive beetles destroyed the combs. One item JWC did not address is that they asked what diseases were treated which only got a response from 2 beekeepers. Would you care to speculate that beekeepers in SA do not treat for diseases including varroa?
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,976

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    MSL, Shh, he has a drum to beat.
    well I agree on most of what he posts, just think he triped him self up here.. it happens, to all of us.
    I agree with his position, Internet TF is a crock.
    Either you take the "loses" threw hive death, pinching and re queening with select stock, or you live in an area where the feral do it for you and you befit from that pool's losses

    let them die and split what lives is a dead end belief system that after decades has not produced results (vs grafting and re queening sub par stock )
    true kefuss bond can and has worked, but thats propagating the top 2% left alive and requeening the bottom. When his son took over and let up on the selection pressure the stock tanked, 70% losses ensued, and treatments were needed, and still are

    Alive doesn't = breeding stock
    at 50% loses and a normal bell curve, 68% of what lives is the same as 68% of what dies, so if you propagate them, you get no better(well in theroy 14% better per year, but that takes 100% heradory on the trait, drone control etc) then what died
    not to mention 40% of the splits(walk aways) will have drone fathers that had no effect on the hive trates muck you up, fast

    in nature 80% of the queens that overwinter are culled and don't see the next spring (based on seeley 2017 numbers), that is what it take in nature to hold steady... the loss of 78% of your splits.... improvement will take a higher loss rate
    in nature the swarm queens are layed by the queen and not chosen by the workers elimating the criptic effect https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0199124
    I suggest the TF "split" culture and"easy beekeeping" has been a mad grab for member ship, which has osterize those who could actually intact change.


    I am no friend to the TF BS preached by many, that doesn't mean I don't see genetic resistance as the future, it is ! No other choice, history has shown this.
    but that doesn't mean we flush scientific method down the tubes
    the long and short here is we know what it takes to move a trait in bees, have so for decades if not centuries

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,049

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Did you ever feel like you were running a race with a ball and chain tied to your leg? That is effectively what bees are doing so long as we continue to prop up susceptible genetics. Extreme polyandrous mating guarantees a queen will carry huge levels of genetic diversity, but also means that alleles with low prevalence in the population will only come to the forefront when something takes the rest of the genetics out of the mating pool. What happens when the entire mating pool is composed of mite resistant bees?

    MSL, the sad thing is that you can see where we need to go, but it does not sound like you are actively trying to get there.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  17. #36
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,966

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    When the main reason for existing of near 90% of the colonies in the US is mass pollination; perhaps the present bee characteristics and supply system is filling the need. That system has a huge momentum. That type of bee is not at all what the small or stationary beekeeper needs but trying to overcome those genetics with the result of isolated breeding experiments is a bit like pithing against the wind. Bees breeding habits work against us.

    Many people are wringing their hands about it but until they come up with a doable method of derailing the mass production bees I dont think it will happen.

    I have seen this discussion come up quite a few times and when confronted with how it reasonably might be accomplished, we seem to come up empty. I think that manipulating and reprogramming peoples motivations may be a different skill set than bee breeding.

    Maybe we need another Edward Bernays!

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ry_of_the_Self
    Frank

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,976

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Extreme polyandrous mating guarantees a queen will carry huge levels of genetic diversity, but also means that alleles with low prevalence in the population will only come to the forefront when something takes the rest of the genetics out of the mating poo
    bingo, if people would pinch 80%+of the survived queens and replace them with better ones we could weed out the week and improve Resistance with improved queens, and more importantly improved drones . My suggestion is "death" has not proved strong enough negative pressure, too many "poor" drones for the "lucky" remain, even in the TF pool (standard bell curve stuff)

    MSL, the sad thing is that you can see where we need to go, but it does not sound like you are actively trying to get there.
    what makes you say that? I am just asking the TF message to meet reailty 1/2 way... that same message I give the OAV "vape heads" and there 20 tx a year "success"

    the death cult model used by some to predict stock improvement from losses and splits would also predict stock improvement from treated loses and splits at the scale they are taking(40+%), but neither move forward with splits
    . and yes I use JWC's language for this "death cult" misinformation . I don't mean TF, I don't mean true bond were you clear a path for further selection and propagation. I mean the split what lives.
    long and short of it is TF or TX there are those who can see what needs to be done, and those that don't.... the problem is no one wants to pay $$

    cards on the table...
    a true TF breeder queen, A queen that's offspring could rival the 5% mite loses of SA, would be worth $2-4K maybe more, sell 200 of them .
    ...
    I would buy her now, graft 10,000 cells sell them at $10 each and change the world and make a 100X return
    sell me that queen with a garenteen on performance and your argument ends, sell those 200 to people like me and we have changed the US bee genetics.
    but
    Such a (EHB) bee dose not exist. And will not even come close till people are wiling to pay a premium for those queens

    something takes the rest of the genetics out of the mating pool
    my response is simple, it maters not what dies, it matters not what lives it maters what takes its place.

    yes crofter is right, we need a culture shift.
    Its time to rethink the issue
    We know from the late 1800s Italian craze what it takes to shift a stock. Requening every year or 2 with "pure" for many years.
    Start of the 1860s langstroth was selling queens for $20 ($620 in todays money!!!), 20 years later the trade papers were full of adds for "dollar queens" (about $25).

    At the moment resistant queens don't fetch a premium price, indicating that the market doesn't value them, and their lies the problem.
    My area Nucs are all ready preselling at $195+ and Packages $140

    The hobiest market, rather then demanding a bee more suited to thier needs( and getting it!) Is grabing up what ever is available, now, before there is none left.

    no incentive for producers to change. And the TF message of "do it your self" stops people from supporting those who have resistant genetics for sale.....

    The 1st and foremost step to enacting change is BYBK's keeping there bees alive and overwintering a spare nuc per hive in case they or some one near them loses one.
    Once there is not a desperate yearly rush to import replacements, people will be willing to be picky, and demand better queens, and or be willing to wait till later in the season for better/local queens to be available.
    then you can start to shift an areas genetics, and as the DNA work on the Arnot forest bees shows, you don't have to have a massive aria to set up a genetic island... a town/city/county would work.
    The problem as aways is distribution of improved genetics(it maters not what dies, it matters not what lives it maters what takes its place. ). I feel that 48 hour cells are a good choice and am working to that end
    Yes I am out there working for change, about this time last year I realized no progress was ever going to happen on a forum
    So I turned my sites locally, pushing for change with my club
    Teaching, writing a biweekly queen rearing column fro the club news letter and proofing some nontraditional methods that are suited to the BYBK at a club level.

    Sadly I found out I wasn't a big enough producer to qualified for the SARE grant app I had been working on, so the grand scheme has been throttled back to a personalty funded club level test run for this year
    The gole of witch is to develop a culture/market of using 48/ripe cells/virgins along with increasing the number of self made cells
    Once there is a market and I am pumping 100 or so in to the local club at maby $5 a piece for 48s the purchase of a II breeder becomes a reality.
    once that happens its far easer to market to other clubs, selling 48s by the bar for them to take home, finish, and distribute to thier members. at an up charge of course... they buy the 48s for $5, member get the cells for $10 or so... $$ makes the world go round... and member get cheap queens that will throw pure trait drones. Now rotate the breeder queen traits yearly (VSH,MBB, Russtian, etc) This is how you take back the DCAs, one club at a time.
    Easy peizy to graft 3 bars on Friday night and have 40+ 48 hour cells ready for pick up on Sunday afternoon. With an 8 week season that's 320 cells X $5 = $1600, and that's just one person with one strong hive. Imagine one or 2 people like this per club!

    I suggest the problem in most areas is NOT the big commercial operations, Its the BYBK! its the little guy. I truly feel the finger is being pointed in the wrong direction. WE as beekeepers are at fault, not "them"

    WE can take back many/most of our DCAs, WE are just choosing not to.
    It just takes the understanding that for most of us, we can buy much better bees then we can select for given our small size, and we need to do that on a semi regulator basis till an areas traits are shifted and the drone stock has been improved. Then as a group select high performance local queens as breeders
    WE can do this cheaply and easy with 48s, so we should.
    but that sounds like work and beekeeping.... something that the " TF Gurus" and "OAVape Heads" push back against in an attempt to gain membership

    Middle ground,elbow grease, future that is
    Last edited by msl; 12-10-2019 at 12:00 AM.

  19. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    4,155

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Crazy as this may sound, it is my belief that mites are the effect, and not the cause of our problems. Pesticides cause our bees to bee stressed, and mites with the associated viruses are the effect. Like Pneumonia, they are a secondary infection. People do not get pneumonia and die, they are weakened and pneumonia finishes them off.

    We had the fortune of acquiring a significant quantity of drawn comb that was not laden with pesticides The results where staggering. The scale hive on dead out comb made 12 lbs surplus. Many of the hives on clean comb made 12 lbs surplus, with no spotty brood.


    Crazy Roland

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,444

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    bingo, if people would pinch 80%+of the survived queens and replace them with better ones.......
    How exactly do you select the 80% of the survivors to be pinched (which ones are the "better ones")?

    Mite counts?
    Well, John Kefuss indicated that the mite counts are not a sole, reliable parameter to base your decisions on (the ultimate survival still is).

    IF I ONLY have two promising survivor queens, how exactly do I implement the proposed 80% elimination out of the two?

    No, I am not going to run hundreds and hundreds of hives and nucs.
    20 units - absolute practical max during the high season.
    Last edited by GregV; 12-10-2019 at 11:16 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  21. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,922

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    >Pesticides cause our bees to bee stressed...

    I would agree that pesticides are the biggest problem. And they keep changing them which means the bees never really build up a resistance. Every time they come out with a new one it's a new problem...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •