Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Where have I seen that guy in the front row?

    Now that is good stuff.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    David, Around my neck of the woods we don't have many Maples, but we do have a lot of Willow. They could be getting a little from the Willows, but I'm not sure. When the Red Buds bloom, it is dramatic.
    The thing that makes me think they are robbing dead-outs is that it is not all hives gain weight. It seems that one or two find something and somehow manage to keep it for themselves. If it was natural forage I think they would all gain. I was going to pay more attention this year, but it didn't occur.

    I live in cattle country, so save but the National Forest and the Poteau River, a lot of the land is cleared. Anything that does well in the fence rows is plentiful. The Goldenrod seems to do well, post clearing, especially if not many cows are introduced.

    I suspect the swarms that escaped in previous years are what is being robbed. I have much better swarm control in place now, so it should be easier to guess if we have survivors or escapees. If they are able to survive I should be able to find at least one, especially during the Spring flow. I will keep looking.

    Good luck on your continued success.
    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  4. #103
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Great video, thank you for posting Saltybee (and the reference Michael Palmer).

    The bit about how a varroa mite can still assume a unique smell signature when dead certainly underscores how formidable a foe they are.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  5. #104
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    The tip of the hat belongs to MP, the link to Google.

    Did you catch the small cell reference? Maybe the problem with small cell is the goal is still too large.

    A. cerana cells are of two sizes: smaller worker cells (diameter of 3.6±4.9 mm, depth of 1.01 mm;
    Tingek, 1996 in [1,42,45,46]) and larger drone cells (diameter of 4.7±5.3 mm; [1,42,46]). In
    comparison, A. mellifera worker cell sizes were approximately 4.9 mm average [64]. A. cerana drone
    cells have a distinctly raised cap with a unique pore at their apex [42,65]. The size difference between
    worker cells and drone cells is less pronounced in A. cerana than in A. mellifera [1]. Queen cells are
    large conical cells built on the lower edge of the combs [42]. However, just as body size varies
    geographically, so does worker cell size. Worker cells are larger in colder regions (e.g., Japan: 4.7±4.8 mm,
    High Himalaya: 4.9 mm, Central India: 4.5 mm, Southern India: 4.3 mm, Phillippines: 3.6±4.0 mm;
    Crane, 1993 in [1,42].
    from https://www.mdpi.com › pdf

    What is the general view of; https://www.geneticsmr.org/articles/...-in-africa.pdf
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  6. #105
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    The reverse is true. See Ghosts in the Hive.
    Mites mimic the odor of the hive to camouflage their presence. Mite resistant bees seem able to overcome this. I don't have any proof other than that the bees somehow detect the mites and control their numbers. It is speculation, but I think we will find out eventually that enhanced sense of smell plays a part.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  7. #106
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Yes that one. The presentation was 10/2013. Published the following March.

  8. #107
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    More than simply masking scent. Following the life cycle of the bee by lipid make up. Imagine being able to mimic the "ready to cap" signal and sending the mite into a cell too early. Don't know what that would do to the bee though.

    Or using the lipid film as a vehicle to direct disruption or death of the mite.

    What does OA do to the lipid film?

    Fascinating basic science beyond my ability to do more than watch.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  9. #108
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Oddly, when I tested some daughter queens from Purdue stock, they were the worst when looking at mite susceptibility..... but perhaps it was the supplier as acceptance was poor and the ones that did make it, the bees tried to supercede immediately which I was able to stop by knocking out cells for two weeks but again, they mited out pretty quickly. Tim Ives had an II breeder from the program as well and reported fairly poor survivability in daughter queens as well.

  10. #109

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    The reverse is true. See Ghosts in the Hive. Video from the National Honey Show in 2013
    How do the VSH bees detect mites making offspring in cells, if it were not odor?

    "Removal of mite-infested brood is probably triggered by unusual odors that penetrate the cell cap to the outside where hygienic bees patrol the comb surface. "

    https://bee-health.extension.org/var...-reproduction/



    https://phys.org/news/2006-10-honey-...receptors.html

    "Honey bees (Apis millifera) have 170 odorant receptors, the researchers found, compared with 62 in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster) and 79 in mosquitoes (Anopheles gramblae).

    The enhanced number of odorant receptors underlies the honey bee's remarkable olfactory abilities, including perception of pheromones, kin recognition signals, and social communication within the hive."

  11. #110
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    I think we are talking about two sides of the same coin. Bees use scent to find mites, mites use scent to hide. Word phrasing depends upon looking at it from the bee side or the mite side. Not an actual disagreement on biology .
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  12. #111
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    I think we are talking about two sides of the same coin. Bees use scent to find mites, mites use scent to hide. Word phrasing depends upon looking at it from the bee side or the mite side. Not an actual disagreement on biology .
    How do the VSH bees detect mites making offspring in cells, if it were not odor?

    According to the YouTube "Ghosts in the Hive." She suggested, that the odor being detected is the "sick" pupae , as the mites absorb or pick up the scent, from the host , so likely would not smell much different from the bee. As the mites bite/feed on the young bee the odor of the bee changes to that of a "sick" bee

  13. #112
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Not necessarily odd, between the 2 SAREs https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne16-836/

    Overall, our results show that Purdue stocks selected for mite biting behavior (MBB) damage a larger percentage of the mites within the colony as shown by the rate of biting behavior in the sticky board tests. This difference between the MBB colonies and Controls seems to persist through the Fall. Colony weight and overall mite population (inferred from daily drop rates), do not significantly differ between the Purdue Stock and the Controls.

    The erratic data can also be attributed to the vast differences of test dates, 8/18/17 to 11/15/17 between the 7 bee yards, and the interpretation of a ‘chewed mite’ on the sticky boards by the 7 different technicians.

    Winter survival for the Purdue MBB bees was 50% vs. the Control of 36%, or a mortality rate of 50% vs. 74%. Table 1 SARE-Winter-Survivorship-2017

    While statistically not significant, the differences in weight and mite load at certain times in the Fall is worthy of more exploration
    one also has to remember the II program is different then most... Producers bring there own local virgins to be IIed with MBB semen so there can be a good bit of variability (thats the point) From this local MBB cross you select those with the best traits (40%+ bitten mites and local adaption) and use them as breeders.

  14. #113

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    I think we are talking about two sides of the same coin. Bees use scent to find mites, mites use scent to hide. Word phrasing depends upon looking at it from the bee side or the mite side. Not an actual disagreement on biology .
    ???? I don´t understand your comment.


    These two were writing about bees ability to detect mites by sense of smell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I speculated a couple of years ago that enhanced sense of smell is a mite tolerance trait expressed by bees that detect and remove mites,
    which Michael Palmer denied saying:
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    The reverse is true. See Ghosts in the Hive. Video from the National Honey Show in 2013


    Mites hiding(by changing odor) in bees does not remove the fact that the bees most probably find mites inside cells with good sense of smell.

  15. #114
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    "Mites hiding(by changing odor) in bees does not remove the fact that the bees most probably find mites inside cells with good sense of smell."

    I agree totally. The fact that mites are so well adapted to matching the hosts scent is strong indication that it is crucial.

    If I got MP's point correctly he was simply pointing out that scent is also the mites method of preventing detection. So what comes after that step?

    What the further method of detection/ removal is used after the 3 hour window of scent matching, I do not know.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  16. #115
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    "Mites hiding(by changing odor) in bees does not remove the fact that the bees most probably find mites inside cells with good sense of smell."

    I agree totally. The fact that mites are so well adapted to matching the hosts scent is strong indication that it is crucial.

    If I got MP's point correctly he was simply pointing out that scent is also the mites method of preventing detection. So what comes after that step?

    What the further method of detection/ removal is used after the 3 hour window of scent matching, I do not know.
    Again , in the Q&A of the "Ghosts in the hive" a question was asked how do the bees find the mites sealed in the cells if the Mites are "masquerading the same scent as the bee" The answer given was the bees were detecting the scent of a "Sick" pupae, not the mites inside the cell. Once the Mite bites the Pupae it had a different smell due to the stress of the bite or the non Heath "sick" smell. I.E. pupae bitten smell different than healthy ones.

  17. #116

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    The answer given was the bees were detecting the scent of a "Sick" pupae, not the mites inside the cell.
    VSH bees remove only the mites which make offspring (=new mites).

    If the bees are reacting to sick pupa, how is this possible?


    Good sense of smell is the answer, most probably.

  18. #117
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    If it is the stress of the larva that is detected, then the mite matching that scent does not help it to hide.

    It is possible that a similar sequence happens in adult bees. Particularly in the case of bees which only react to a high mite load, the stress scent might not be restricted/contained in the lipid layer. Hence cloaking does not work.
    It is hard to design a safety net that some will not use as a hammock.

  19. #118
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    If the bees are reacting to sick pupa, how is this possible?
    foundress feeding wound?

  20. #119
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    VSH bees remove only the mites which make offspring (=new mites).

    If the bees are reacting to sick pupa, how is this possible?


    Good sense of smell is the answer, most probably.
    the lecture stated the Adult (female) that hopped in the cell older brown hard shelled. Bites the Pupae and makes a hole then the babies (smaller) with soft shell, clime to the hole and start feeding. that Bite/hole causes stress in the pupae, if caring virus also infects the pupae. it then has a different smell, stressed and maybe sick VRS happy and healthy. the nurse bees can smell the difference. So in reality the "smell stressed Pupae" is not a new genetic emergence it is a different pathogen being found in a similar manner to the old pathogens.
    watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE4emUMyOWs

  21. #120
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Hi JRG13,

    I just spent a day with someone who very closely follows the Purdue program, and uses a lot of their stock. I won't mention his name, for his sake.

    He reported that Purdue's stock got watered down so much they had to get stock from a participant breeder to maintain the line.
    "The amazing thing about the honey bee is not that she works, but that she works for others." St. John Chrysostom

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