Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Makes me think of the utube with the bees virtually pouncing on the mite. Never clear if that was a mite from a different hive or the host hive.
    That was Purdue MBB stock
    SARE grant on them https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne15-819/

    The 2015 season was marked regionally with substantial Fall losses due to being overwhelmed by mites; the MBB bees stole the remaining honey from collapsing neighboring hives, and also brought back hitchhiker mites with them, and guard bees groomed them off, killed them, and left them in piles next to the entrance.
    The next year follow up found

    Winter survival for the Purdue MBB bees was 50% vs. the Control of 36%, or a mortality rate of 50% vs. 74%. Table 1 SARE-Winter-Survivorship-2017
    While statistically not significant, the differences in weight and mite load at certain times in the Fall is worthy of more exploration
    I found it interesting The in the same general area as COMB they took about the same losses with the unslect stock

    And we see the same in FNE17-863 https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne17-863/
    MBB had 21 out of 30 survive (70%), feral colonies had 10 out of 16 survive (62.5%), and the control had 6 out of 18 survive (33.3% ).
    This puts small cell firmly to bed for me

    Of note
    Group 1-MBB colonies, bees that chew mites, were significantly heavier than the Group-3-control group. Also, Group 2-feral bees, were similar to the control group. Statistics proved a positive correlation between MBB and hive weight; the more chewed mites, the higher the weight. The average weights were: Group 1 – 132 pounds, Group 2 – 85 pounds, and Group 3 – 97 pounds.
    but a key point here
    We set out over 28 swarm traps, and visited them 516 times, and collected 56 swarms, of which 17 were established in colonies for the study. Note: Most locations captured between 0 and 4, Ohio skews the numbers by reporting 42. Many swarms were destroyed by bears while still in the trap before they could be transferred, and many small ones failed to establish.
    Large swarm losses=strong selection pressure on ferals above and beyond overwintering leads to better survival rates

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  3. #82
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    The location where the nuc came from is about 50 miles north as the bee flies. I had heard a lot of good things about these NWC bees and thought I would try one colony and if nothing else I would have something to compare, which is what I will do. I have no scientific reasons why this is the way it is, just good luck and good bees maybe, but it is what it is. I just thought I would share this story of one fortunate beekeeper, and of course , who knows what the future will bring.

  4. #83
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    A line of bee from a closed population breeding program selected for hygienic behavior and low mite counts did well with minimal treatments? Who would have thunk

    NWC have been used in lot of mite resistance breeding programs to bring in grooming traits among other things.

  5. #84

    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by unstunghero View Post
    M The next spring(2019) Two of my hives swarmed, I gave one away and sold one. I was seeing very few mites and I haven't needed to treat those five hives.

    June 9, 2019 I received a New World Carniolan queen, split one of my hives and introduced this queen into the split. As the year went on I was seeing an increasing number of mites in the nwc split, and by late August they had filled one 10-frame deep(not great).

    By the end of October I was seeing DWV and 20-30 mites a week, I treated.

    My original bees came from a second generation beekeeper who told me that they had introduced every type of new queen that came along, and selected for honey, health, and gentleness in that order. I believe the bees themselves are the answer, the few mites that I find in my original colonies are missing legs, and when I inspect them they just appear to be lifeless hulls.

    The mites I inspected from the nwc colony had their legs, and many were alive. The mites I inspect come from pans in an enclosed,screened bottom board with diatomaceous earth. Not treatment free, just don't need to treat.
    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    A line of bee from a closed population breeding program selected for hygienic behavior and low mite counts did well with minimal treatments? Who would have thunk

    NWC have been used in lot of mite resistance breeding programs to bring in grooming traits among other things.
    From the post of unstunghero I understand, opposite to you msl ?, that his original bees were better than nwc bees.

  6. #85
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by unstunghero View Post
    I believe the bees themselves are the answer, the few mites that I find in my original colonies are missing legs, and when I inspect them they just appear to be lifeless hulls. The mites I inspected from the nwc colony had their legs, and many were alive.
    Are you north of Hot Springs and near the forest? I wonder what the feral bee population is in the Ouachita National Forest.
    David Matlock

  7. #86
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    From the post of unstunghero I understand, opposite to you msl
    Good call JL!
    looks, like I miss read post#82 as the NWC being the same stock in the results of his earlier post..
    Confirmation bias hits us all !!!

  8. #87
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    From the post of unstunghero I understand, opposite to you msl ?, that his original bees were better than nwc bees.
    Yes that's how i saw it.

    Seems to me that he had some initial mite issues, but after his hives had swarmed and mated with the locals a bit, they became mite tolerant.

    Then when he got the nwc queen she was less tolerant.

    Since mating with the locals seems to be working for him, and the nwc queen may have some good points, my suggestion would be breed from it, a generation or two down the track may be a pretty useful bee.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  9. #88
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    Are you north of Hot Springs and near the forest? I wonder what the feral bee population is in the Ouachita National Forest.
    We live on the edge of Quachita National Forest, still within the Quachita Mountains, about 80 miles NW of Hot Springs and about 70 miles due South of Ft. Smith.
    When I moved here I could find no Honeybees. The closest apiary that I knew of was about 4 miles away, yet we had no visitors from them. I believe they have since perished. There was a tree with bees in the forest that was known about 10 years ago to have bees. I had been keeping an eye on it before I got bees, but a couple of years later someone had cut out the side of the tree and burned the inside. I don't know if they robbed it or if it was a nuisance as it was near the entrance to a primitive camping spot. Having said all that, I don't know if it had been continually occupied prior to my discovery. I have since not found any more bees in the forest.
    I have set out wet supers and cappings at the 4 compass points around my apiary. All bees seem to fly back to mine, although I'll admit sometimes it is hard to tell. I mostly watch to see from which direction the first to arrive and the last to go home.
    Since about 2016 each Spring, except 2019, some of my hives have gained weight and started making white wax in late Feb. I am assuming they are robbing dead-outs. As from where these dead-outs originated, I can only guess. Maybe, they are the remnants of escaped swarms from my colonies. I used Snelgrove boards this year to stem the flow of swarms from here. I had one colony that swarmed and built Queen cells non stop it seemed. That Queen failed the hive tool test. I'll be watching mine carefully this Spring for robbing activity. I fear the mites they may be bringing back with them.
    There are a lot of large apiaries around the Hot Springs, Pine Bluff, Ozark and Russleville areas.
    I get a few swarm and cut-out calls per year, but I turn them down because I don't want bees from unknown sources. My fear of EFB and AFB outweighs my curiosity.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  10. #89
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    Since about 2016 each Spring, except 2019, some of my hives have gained weight and started making white wax in late Feb. I am assuming they are robbing dead-outs. As from where these dead-outs originated, I can only guess.
    Alex, thank you for the information. I wonder if the late February weight gain and wax could be from redbud or maple trees. I see a lot of nectar producing flowering vines and shrubs in the forests and flowering plants along roadsides and forest edges from Glenwood to Jessieville. There's certainly plenty of old hardwoods and vacant farmhouses and outbuildings to provide cavities for feral colonies to inhabit.
    David Matlock

  11. #90
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    A line of bee from a closed population breeding program selected for hygienic behavior and low mite counts did well with minimal treatments? Who would have thunk

    NWC have been used in lot of mite resistance breeding programs to bring in grooming traits among other things.
    If this was in reference to my post above, you need to read my initial post that begins with "my history" on page 4.

  12. #91
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    Alex, thank you for the information. I wonder if the late February weight gain and wax could be from redbud or maple trees. I see a lot of nectar producing flowering vines and shrubs in the forests and flowering plants along roadsides and forest edges from Glenwood to Jessieville. There's certainly plenty of old hardwoods and vacant farmhouses and outbuildings to provide cavities for feral colonies to inhabit.
    Spring of 2017 was a great year for red maple, I stuck a honey box on my best colony and took 3 quarts of the honey and left them 3, they almost filled the whole Med. 8-frame box. Normally the weather doesn't allow for that type of flow and harvest. Usually in Feb. they get differing amounts from the red maple, with some henbit followed by purple deadnettle, then redbud.

  13. #92
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by unstunghero View Post
    Usually in Feb. they get differing amounts from the red maple, with some henbit followed by purple deadnettle, then redbud.
    That’s helpful and interesting. Do you ever hear of feral bees or colonies that need to be removed in the Hot Springs area?
    David Matlock

  14. #93
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    If this was in reference to my post above, you need to read my initial post that begins with "my history" on page 4
    That was that the point of post #86
    I said oops my bad once all ready when JL pointed out my mistake.
    but, by request I will issue a 2nd.

  15. #94
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    msl
    Thank for the detailed aside.
    Two thoughts; It would seem that the difference in mauling is in the initial detection of the mite. " Finding a proper control with no MBB at all is virtually impossible as this trait is likely observed in all honey bee colonies to a certain extent." What was the pass through percentage in the hives that were piling them up at the door? Were some hives just doing a better job at the door? (measured by no uptick in internal mite counts.

    Likewise is there a relationship between external detection and internal detection. Is the difference in biter v not a sense of smell and not much else? And yes that does fall right into the pesticide question.

    The method of OAV kill. Is it possible the kill does not come from burnt mite feet but from but a change in detection of the mite from the OAV followed by biting? Or does a burnt foot look different than a bit foot? ( Now I sound like a Oak Island announcer.)
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  16. #95
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Legs bitten off look quite a bit different from feet burned by oxalic acid.

    I speculated a couple of years ago that enhanced sense of smell is a mite tolerance trait expressed by bees that detect and remove mites, either as part of VSH behavior or as part of mite mauling and allogrooming.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  17. #96
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Legs bitten off look quite a bit different from feet burned by oxalic acid.
    funny thing.. I see not a single study to support that hypothesis
    despite internet rumors, I can't find a single study that shows OAV burns off mite feet , my challenge to you is for to provide a source that supports your claim that
    #1 OAV burns mite feet off, as proven by a microscope study, funny that... I do wonder why we look at mites killed by bees under a scope for "biteing" and not those killed by OAV
    #2 a OAV kill looks different from MBB action

    and ...go !

  18. #97
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    I have read the hypothesis that a mites sticky feet are supplied with fluid through an un sphinctered duct that could transfer acidity to the mites body fluid and alter its Ph. That could affect its body odor and its ability to match hive smell. Result in being easier for the bees to detect them.

    Another showed the probiscus apparently having been altered but that may have been a photo enhanced simulation.

    Show us some actual photos of mangled mites and some ones exposed to OA. Both vaporized and dribbled 4%.

    It is surprising there is not more substantial evidence in these matters since it does not seem like such a formidable mission to accomplish.
    Frank

  19. #98
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I speculated a couple of years ago that enhanced sense of smell is a mite tolerance trait expressed by bees that detect and remove mites....
    The reverse is true. See Ghosts in the Hive. Video from the National Honey Show in 2013

  20. #99
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    It is actually the statement that the grooming at the entrance was triggered in group 3 when a high mite level was reached that got me pondering.

    In a normal "nose blind" scenario the build up in mites should begin to mask the strange mite smell. Is the chemical a bee irritation chemical or a mite chemical that triggers the high count grooming. As it the guard bees grooming it is not the individual bee irritation but it is a awareness triggered in another bee (if it is indeed a bee based chemical). Would be nice to have that chemical in a bottle. Would speculate it closely related to alarm pheromone.

    Does the guard bee level of grooming extend to the house bees ? If a matter of strange mite detection then frame swapping of house bees would in theory provide the equivalent of a dosing.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  21. #100
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    Default Re: Penn State "COMB" project posts Dec 2019 update

    This one or another?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE4emUMyOWs

    Just saw it is 2013 not 2014 as labeled
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

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