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6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

21K views 80 replies 14 participants last post by  david stern 
#1 · (Edited)
Nothing but 6-frame boxes/medum-size frame (shallow Dadants, technically).
(I guess, he still uses some deeps in the very bottom box - in that case they winter in a single Dadant 6-frame box + an empty super below optionally).

Another version of pure by-the-box approach.
No frame-by-frame futzing about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D8obDyxy24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG4re3G2Y2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlKMDFnZ350

Full collection:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCms6NHuFUqhJ3C6E1x6qmQ/videos
 
#52 ·
Greg - I'm putting together something of a 'beekeeping theory' jigsaw, and right now there's just one piece missing ...

Does this guy have anything at all to say about the presence (or otherwise) of drones within his system ?

I have a hunch that I already know the answer - but it would be extremely useful to know about this from someone who's fully conversant with his language.
'best,
LJ
 
#53 ·
LJ
I will try to review some of his relevant vids where he might have talked about it.
The 6-frame guy abruptly went off-line this spring.
He said he was going to become more organized - but then just went away (entirely possible he is just filming and will be editing/posting off season). He did mention of the planned expansion - just must be very busy with that, as he is a true 100% bee-business operator.

Still, there is plenty of his existing material.
 
#58 ·
One negative of the 6-framers vs. the square 300x300 setup - energy efficiency for stand alone units (typical for me).
With exact same area of the cross section, the 300x300 has ~10% less perimeter (the effect of the perfect square).
Meaning, bees have less work do to conditioning the volume (either UP or DOWN).
10% is significant.
IF not for this, I'd go 6-7 frame hands down.

Of course when you run hundreds of 6-framers, you'd simply line them up wall to wall with the long sides - a logical setup.
 
#60 ·
I'm leaning more and more to switching over to 6-frame boxes next year after some experimenting this year. 3 queens in 6f deep brood boxes under excluder and supers did great compared to my traditional hives. One thing I've seen, and I'm going to construct in my 6f boxes over winter, is that half frames fit perfectly in them sideways. That should make the move from mini mating nucs to 6f to deeps not miss a beat.

I enjoy these experimental threads.
 
#61 · (Edited)
One thing I've seen, and I'm going to construct in my 6f boxes over winter, is that half frames fit perfectly in them sideways
Yep.
One should always think about and design in the compatibility between the systems.
The fundamental compatibility is already there - the right angle (not using the right angle - what makes the funny systems, e.g. KTBHs, Hex hives, log hives - PITA).
 
#62 ·
I might switch to double nucs (pairs of skinny hives) sometime.
advantages:
  1. Join hives to prevent toppling.
  2. smaller hives
  3. Shared heat: The 2 hives make 1 cluster (according to Michael Palmer and Richard Noel).
  4. good for mini frames
my goal: Making bees is more important than harvesting honey.

What I have
  1. medium frames
  2. 4 way queen castle (2 fr./hive): Its hard to get the resources I want in 2 frames. I want honey, capped brood, and some open brood to keep nurse bees from leaving.
double nuc design ideas
  1. Mini frame nucs are probably a priority. Design the mini frames and nuc feeders first. This determines box width.
  2. Easy to separate hives (unlike Palmer double nucs)
  3. number of frames: Michael Palmer and Richard Noel have had success with 4 framers. Has anyone used 6 framers?
  4. Join hives to prevent toppling.
    1. Palmer double nucs use a shared outer cover, bottom box, and bottom board.
    2. my ideas
      1. Make hives easy to separate.
      2. Use a shared stand that bottom boards peg into.
      3. possibly separate outer covers
 
#65 · (Edited)
Guys did a side-by-side whole summer project - comparison of 6-framer vs. 12 framer (Dadant system).

Short resume:
Starting in the preceding fall, two identical young queen bees and bee colonies were taken - creating a 6-frame and a 12-frame hive. During the entire beekeeping season, the bee colonies were treated in the same way, they stood side by side through all summer migrations, and all the honey harvested was weighed. The small-format 6-frame hive showed itself better in early flows from acacia, sweet clover, etc., but the 12-frame hive was 25 percent more effective in the beekeeping season as a whole. The total weight of honey from the hives turned out to be 150 kg from the 6-framer and 200 kg from the 12-framer.

Comment from me - an important detail I got from the video - the 6-framer was a hard-foam hive (the brood box); the 12-framer was a conventional wooden hive.
Also, they kept taking off the capped supers off the 6-framer just to manage its height.
Still - pound for pound - the 6-framer killed it hands down.
Might as well run two 6-framers side by side (adds up to a 12-framer) and get 300 kg from the same footprint.
LOL.

Source:

Начиная с осени были взяты две одинаковые молодые пчелиные матки и пчелиные семьи созданные в 6-ти рамочном и 12 рамочном улье. Весь пчеловодный сезон за пчелиными семьями велся одинаковый уход, на кочевке они стояли рядом и весь собраный на медоносах мед с магазинов взвешивался. Малоформатный 6-ти рамочный улей показал себя лучше на ранних взятках с акации, донника и тд , но зато 12 рамочный улей эффективней на 25 процентов сработал по пчеловодному сезону в целом. Общий вес меда с улья получился 150 кг с шестирамочника и 200 кг с 12 рамочного дадана.
 
#66 ·
That's a very interesting outcome, thanks for conducting this little experiment. How many boxes did you use? Double brood box I assume and how many honey supers?
I am thinking of setting up some AZ hives on a trailer, maybe I should build them as six framers instead of the ten frames.
 
#67 · (Edited)
How many boxes did you use?
Was not me who did the experiment.
I am just reporting what I found out from others and included the source - which is clear.

Detailed videos are here (several pieces) - you can scan and see for yourself.
Status at the start of July:

Status at the end of July:

Status on August 11:

End of the season:

Status in October:


The channel:
 
#68 ·
From the channel comments:
  • May one say that two 6-framers is better than one 12-framer?
  • 100% to say so. We had two 6-framer all summer long working on honey. The pair produced more than 300 kg.
  • Will you increase the number of the 6-framers in your business.
  • Probably so. :)
.................
- For the next year will try to test 6-framer, 8-framer, 10-framer and 12-framer and will see.
 
#69 ·
Well, the thanks for putting the hard work in and translating all the posts. :)
what are the little ramps on the hive entrances for?
Cane toads over here would have a field day munching away those little protein bee snacks.
Looks like I might try the 2x 6 frames in a 12 frame hive.
If one was to do the double hive, would one get a way with one lid, or would one need two lids, one for each hive section?
 
#70 ·
Ramps - in E. Euro they are big into the "ramps" - to help the heavily loaded bees into the hives (I am not a subscriber to this, btw). Since they don't have the cane toads or the skunks - the ramps do not hurt (and may actually help in cold weather - I observed the benefit of the ramps and use them sparingly in very early/very late season).

Double-hive - does not matter - do what is convenient to you.
I have done it in my long hives for wintering reasons - just a rigid plastic separator inserted in a groove and soft inner covers, that simple.
 
#78 ·
I decided to watch the videos linked in post #1 again, and in doing so spotted a few features I'd missed first time around. I hope Greg will correct me if I've misunderstood anything of significance. :)

The 6-frame stacks sit on a 100% area mesh floor with a 20mm high full-width (narrow end) entrance - which together ensure maximum bottom ventilation.

The 6-frame boxes all have the same height, but there are two depths of frame: 300 and 145mm - such that the 300mm frames fit into two stacked 6-frame boxes.

Ok - so these two different frame depths bring me to an issue I still haven't quite got my head around. In early Spring the colony initially builds up on two stacked boxes containing six 300mm (Dadant-depth) frames. When these frames are almost full, a second pair of boxes containing another six 300mm frames are added to expand the brood-nest to a total of 12 Dadant-depth frames for colony build-up. We've covered this expansion in detail several times before now.

But, (and this is where I'm a tad lost) at some point the Dadant brood-frame count is reduced back down to six again for the remainder of the season. Two questions then arise in my mind: firstly, how exactly is this reduction performed, and secondly - what then happens to those frames ?

If I was doing this reduction myself, then - after ensuring that the Queen was on the bottom set of frames - I'd place a QX between the lower and upper set of frames until the latter was cleared, or at least more-or-less cleared ... is that what happens here ? Presumably those frames could then be placed in storage.

But if they were to be used to raise another colony, then the above clearance could be dispensed with, and those frames used 'as is' complete with whatever residual brood they contain.

So that's the essence of my question - what fate awaits that second set of Dadant-sized frames ? - as it would appear that they don't stay on the existing stack.

The reason I'm asking Greg - and many thanks btw for your frequent assistance in translating info from Eastern-European videos, for without that many of us would be hopelessly lost - is that during the coming season I want to try running the two Warre-style stacks I have in more-or-less the same way as this 6-frame commercial guy. (8-frame boxes dummied-down to 6, with Ukrainian (brood) frames occupying two stacked Warre-style boxes) Should be an interesting exercise ... :)
LJ
 
#79 · (Edited)
But, (and this is where I'm a tad lost) at some point the Dadant brood-frame count is reduced back down to six again for the remainder of the season. Two questions then arise in my mind: firstly, how exactly is this reduction performed, and secondly - what then happens to those frames ?

If I was doing this reduction myself, then - after ensuring that the Queen was on the bottom set of frames - I'd place a QX between the lower and upper set of frames until the latter was cleared, or at least more-or-less cleared ... is that what happens here ? Presumably those frames could then be placed in storage.

But if they were to be used to raise another colony, then the above clearance could be dispensed with, and those frames used 'as is' complete with whatever residual brood they contain.

So that's the essence of my question - what fate awaits that second set of Dadant-sized frames ? - as it would appear that they don't stay on the existing stack.
Hey LJ,
I really want to review his videos again (especially the "Advantages of the 6-framers" - #1 to #6). Now that I should have a reliable supply of bees - more experimentation is in order - onto the 6F Dadants! :)

Here is his video titled - "One-time expansion down."
(1031) Разовое расширение в низ! - YouTube
Here is his video titled - "Expansion! Two weeks later!"
(1031) Расширение! Результат через 2 недели! - YouTube

But here let me try:
1) firstly, how exactly is this reduction performed,
In the first video he says (after 11:00 sometimes) - as the upper box frames are gradually empty of the brood the bees will fill those deep frames with honey - he will remove the frames, extract the honey and re-deploy the frames into his splitting/expansion operation.

2) secondly - what then happens to those frames ?
Upon removal of the deep frames above the QX, those deep frames are redeployed into the splits.
So, basically, once the brood has hatched and second deep tier has been redeployed elsewhere - for the remainder of the season only shallow honey frames are installed over the QX.

3) is that what happens here ? Presumably those frames could then be placed in storage.
Not storage - those frames are redeployed into the expansion projects.
At his stationary base he runs expansion/queen mating projects - the deep frames are needed there too.

4)But if they were to be used to raise another colony, then the above clearance could be dispensed with, and those frames used 'as is' complete with whatever residual brood they contain.
In his case - he needs all the brood to hatch locally, and the resulting workforce used for the honey harvest.
Once the second deep tier is redeployed away - he immediately places honey boxes in its place - and then the honey harvest above the main 6F brood box will going on and on - thru the entire long, migratory season.
So, he does not (generally!) deploy the residual brood elsewhere - but you certainly can - depending on your own needs and wants.

5) what fate awaits that second set of Dadant-sized frames ? - as it would appear that they don't stay on the existing stack.
Correct - they don't stay beyond the brood hatching period (3 weeks?).
Their fate is to be redeployed into the swarm of the new 6F splits that are being created and raised at his stationary expansion yard. As he travels with his truck - many of the original queens are being superseded - but the replacement queen matings usually fail (in the crowded truck conditions) - so he must have a good supply of replacement queens and replacement colonies.

Rectangle Building Font Parallel Slope
 
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