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  1. #41
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    But of cource they heat the hive..........
    The real issue is - the ratio of the physical body's heat-outputting capacity to the volume/mass/insulation of the environment that surrounds the heat-outputting body.

    In most all our contexts - a cluster of bees does not really heat the enclosing hive significantly, ESPECIALLY well ventilated hive (in few cases IF they do sometimes - this is not healthy or sustainable for long term - that recent video from KevinWI is an example).

    Of course, any physical body that has the temperature higher than the surrounding environment is HEATING the environment due to well-documented physical processes of energy transfer - via a combination of direct radiation/conductivity/convection. This is not a special case particular to bees, but rather very general thermodynamics.

    Right now I am sitting in this huge office building and also am "heating" it - however, my heating contribution to the building's heating is a virtual zero (relative to the volume/mass of the office building).
    Now - IF they packed 5 thousand people on my floor - that could create noticeable heat/moisture outputs (compare that to a conditioned and insulated commercial storage packed with hundreds of heat/moisture outputting hives - the same).

    Now, let us move the same 5 thousand people into the parking garage just below the building (very well ventilated garage made from concrete) - let me tell you, the garage will stay cold.
    This will be a case of an apiary wintering outside.

    SO - we have 1) a single hive context and 2) a large apiary context.
    These are different contexts.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    right... point is we heat our sleeping bag not the tent... but if a few people in sleeping bags snuggle there is defiantly shared heat and the tent is warmer then if everyone is in there own tent

    SO - we have 1) a single hive context and 2) a large apiary context.
    These are different contexts.
    yes and we are talking in the large apiary context... spreading hives out vs stacking them in a wall

    usda-thermology-fig2.gif
    as we see there are areas of 50F touching the hive walls I submit that thew the 3/4 wood the out side of those was is significantly warmer then the 7F out side, and we can see so is almost all of the box
    its a good read
    https://beesource.com/resources/usda...-bee-colonies/

  4. #43
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Here is an idea to go along with the six frame hive body if you really want to be different. Using the Dadant Blatt frame in 2 half height boxes stacked for brood hive and for honey supers it appears one of the boxes is right for a shallow lang frame. Would be a nice setup for someone who has lifting problems.

    http://forum.canberrabees.com/t/recr...rood-frame/148
    Frank

  5. #44
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    right... point is we heat our sleeping bag not the tent... but if a few people in sleeping bags snuggle there is defiantly shared heat and the tent is warmer then if everyone is in there own tent


    yes and we are talking in the large apiary context... spreading hives out vs stacking them in a wall

    usda-thermology-fig2.gif
    as we see there are areas of 50F touching the hive walls I submit that thew the 3/4 wood the out side of those was is significantly warmer then the 7F out side, and we can see so is almost all of the box
    its a good read
    https://beesource.com/resources/usda...-bee-colonies/
    MSL, I have a copy of that exact PDF and read it.
    I agree about the "in-box" dynamics.
    Definitely, the residual heat loss does affect the internal temps.
    But how significant?
    Depends case by case and context by context.
    Academically speaking - even a fraction of a degree is significant.
    Practically speaking - a very solid foam hive recaptures enough of that energy that bees hardly even cluster (a very tiny mating nucs can winter in the foam - not a problem).
    But a conventional 10-frame Lang from thin boards - ok, go and try to heat that up...

    But back to the LJ's case (wintering a row of boxes outside) - there is not much of energy output that the boxes can share in that case.
    UNLESS you build a mini-wintering shed around them and insulate it well enough to recapture any escaping heat (under sort of a bubble).
    Covering the entire set with a good snow pile will do this as well - not a case for LJ - no snow.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #45
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Here is an idea to go along with the six frame hive body if you really want to be different. Using the Dadant Blatt frame in 2 half height boxes stacked for brood hive and for honey supers it appears one of the boxes is right for a shallow lang frame. Would be a nice setup for someone who has lifting problems.

    http://forum.canberrabees.com/t/recr...rood-frame/148
    Frank, if you review few videos starting from my original post here - this is EXACTLY what the guy is doing in those videos.

    As for me, all my boxes will be built about the standard Lang medium frame - a double box of these fits a deep Dadant frame about perfectly (plenty close for the bottom boxes).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Yes. I have a set of frames ready to assemble. I made them the full 12.75" since I will probably draw them out in stacked five frame boxes. I think the bees work upwards, more eagerly than sideways and make fewer drone cells. In my cold climate frames commonly dont get drawn frame to frame till the second season. They build them out nicer in 5 over 5 over 5 arrangement.

    The author seems to feel the 5 3/8 honey frames get drawn and capped more evenly that the 6 1/4" mediums but it would be quite a challenge to switch equipment when you are already bought in.

    Few beginners would be up to the challenge of going with non standard equipment.
    Frank

  8. #47
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I like using excluders and wonder if a 10 frame sized one could be cut in half and set into wooden frames that would extend to cover the six frame box.
    [...]
    I think I am talking myself into building some 6 frame equipment!
    This is a 5-frame QX to which some wood was added to one side so that it would then cover a 6-frame box. Perforated zinc - a horrible material ...



    A few years back I scored a job lot of QX 'kits', the metalwork of which had been poorly galvanised - maybe 10 or 12 kits (forget now). Several of these I sliced in half and modified the woodwork accordingly:



    I found that making 2x female slots at the new corners which were created and then using a biscuit to join them was easier than making a male tongue to fit a female slot:



    These now cover a 230mm-wide 5-frame nuc box, and of course 2 can be used together (if needs be) to cover our standard 460mm-wide 11-frame brood box. I do have four 8-frame hives, and will make some loose battens to place against the 5-frame QX sides to cover the extra width. Wider lumber could always be used to cover a 6-frame width of course.

    All-in-all it's much easier to modify a kit of parts, rather than a pre-made QX.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  9. #48
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Someone is conducting a comparative observation of 6-framers too vs. standard 10-frame Dadants.
    Here is the start of his project - summer 2019 - moving a split into the 6-frame hive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcIow9JLf4I

    Fall update:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sgyhHrvRlA

    Winter update:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWTRfb1BIE0
    Last edited by GregV; 02-12-2020 at 07:59 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #49

    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Waiting for the fail update. :-)

  11. #50
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Full collection:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCm...E1x6qmQ/videos[/QUOTE]

    The 6-framer guy started reporting his early 2020 status.
    His base is compatible to USDA 7.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrnuN5ezGtg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #51
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    I use 3x 6FR over 6FR. In my configuration I can have 2x 10Fr shared suppers above the excluder. Small scale near Chicago:-).
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by jtgoral; 08-12-2020 at 07:27 PM.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Greg - I'm putting together something of a 'beekeeping theory' jigsaw, and right now there's just one piece missing ...

    Does this guy have anything at all to say about the presence (or otherwise) of drones within his system ?

    I have a hunch that I already know the answer - but it would be extremely useful to know about this from someone who's fully conversant with his language.
    'best,
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  14. #53
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Greg - I'm putting together something of a 'beekeeping theory' jigsaw, and right now there's just one piece missing ...

    Does this guy have anything at all to say about the presence (or otherwise) of drones within his system ?

    I have a hunch that I already know the answer - but it would be extremely useful to know about this from someone who's fully conversant with his language.
    'best,
    LJ
    LJ
    I will try to review some of his relevant vids where he might have talked about it.
    The 6-frame guy abruptly went off-line this spring.
    He said he was going to become more organized - but then just went away (entirely possible he is just filming and will be editing/posting off season). He did mention of the planned expansion - just must be very busy with that, as he is a true 100% bee-business operator.

    Still, there is plenty of his existing material.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    LJ
    I will try to review some of his relevant vids where he might have talked about it.
    ..........

    This may take some time.

    Briefly reviewed this episode on "why the 6-framers do not swarm"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIre421dsFc

    The basic premise is - with the 6-framer management, one is able to continuously keep the unit in the "young colony" mode.
    As we know - the "young colony" is the one rebuilding after swarming.
    The priority of such young colony is to urgently re-establish at the new place and put away resources for the cold season.
    The drones are the lowest priority; the re-swarming is also low priority.

    With the 6-frame setup, one need to frequently and radically pull away resources (e.g. frames of brood) so to manage the population down.
    This forces the colony to be in "young colony" mode where they keep rebuilding.
    And this also means one needs to continuously be expanding - those taken away resources need to go somewhere.

    Of course, managing the population down goes counter to the popular belief of "making the colonies" large - so bring in bigger crops per a unit. But as we observe on this channel, running more smaller units gets just as large crop and then some - this is a tangent subject. The downside - more hands-on management, of course.

    Back to your question - I will review more episodes keeping in mind to just look at the frames (regardless of the actual subjects shown).
    As we know, the "young colonies" naturally build very little drone brood.
    This is what I expect to see - little drone brood.

    Of note: the 6-frame guy uses in the broodnest foundation (of his own production);
    his frame spacing is 35mm, if I recall (now confirmed).
    he started making this honey super frames only on foundation strips and no wires (to save time/resources) and was please with the result - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIre421dsFc
    He says (and you can observe) - the bees do build sections of large drone/honey cells in such "foundation-less" frames - but the QX does not allow for drone brood in these frames;

    Here is another vid of his running foundation-less simple frames - there is some large cell in them too; but not many; these are really honey cells techically, not drone cells.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSFbH9M3lNI

    So, the QX is a part of the drone absence in his hives.
    But managing them as "young colonies" as another part, maybe the major part.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    This may take some time.
    Hi Greg. Sure - no worries.

    As we know, the "young colonies" naturally build very little drone brood. This is what I expect to see - little drone brood.
    Indeed - that's exactly what I would expect, and what I'd hoped this guy would confirm.

    It seems that there are two opposing methods of preventing swarming: one is to provide the largest possible brood nest, so that the queen always has room to lay - that was Chas Dadant's approach. The downside with his approach is that you end up with a large number of bees after the flow, as well as drones - a waste of resources for a honey-farmer - and all of which then need feeding, which is even more waste of resources.

    The other approach is what this guy is doing: keeping the brood nest to the minimum size consistent with efficient forager harvesting - so that no drones or excess bees result which require resources to both create and then feed. Greater efficiency for the honey-farmer.
    This may have been the underlying rationale behind Heddon's approach too, but I'll admit to always having had a prejudice against Heddon's ultra-shallow frames - so I've never taken much interest in what he had to say. Maybe it's about time to rectify that. However, a smaller number of deeper frames sits much better with my way of doing things.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  17. #56
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Hi Greg. Sure - no worries.



    Indeed - that's exactly what I would expect, and what I'd hoped this guy would confirm.

    It seems that there are two opposing methods of preventing swarming: one is to provide the largest possible brood nest, so that the queen always has room to lay - that was Chas Dadant's approach. The downside with his approach is that you end up with a large number of bees after the flow, as well as drones - a waste of resources for a honey-farmer - and all of which then need feeding, which is even more waste of resources.

    The other approach is what this guy is doing: keeping the brood nest to the minimum size consistent with efficient forager harvesting - so that no drones or excess bees result requiring resources to both create and then feed. Greater efficiency for the honey-farmer.
    This may have been the underlying rationale behind Heddon's approach too, but I'll admit to always having had a prejudice against Heddon's ultra-shallow frames - so I've never taken much interest in what he had to say. Maybe it's about time to rectify that. However, a smaller number of deeper frames sits much better with my way of doing things.
    LJ

    Here is a good review of the good strong unit mid-summer - he does a full brood nest demo - Jul 21, 2019.
    Watch as he flips through the frames - the whole six of them! LOL
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FRfW5ZkGbg&t=240s

    What we have:
    - just removed EIGHT fully capped honey boxes (the ninth box unfinished yet)
    -- this is only the first harvest; still 1/2 season to go yet - there is more honey in the coming
    - the entire brood nest is packed into the lowest box - 6 full-size Dadant frames fully packed
    -- watch, there is some drone brood on these brood frames (he mentions it) - I estimate 2-3% of the brood is drone IF that.

    Basically, this is your answer LJ.
    This demo will show you what you want to know - they do have drone, but very little of it.
    IF they were in the mood for drone, they'd make some - keep in mind, this is wax foundation and so it does not limit much the drone cell construction if bees want it.

    So to reiterate his method:
    - in the spring time he will one-time expand the brood up to two brood boxes (12 full-size Dadant frames) - to make one-time population boost - this is for the honey-producing units (especially so for the early spring honey production)
    - then he'll confine the queen to the lower 6 frames and that is the brood nest for the remainder of the season
    - during the one-time expansion - he'd move the brood UP (above the QX) and fill the lower box with new frames for a near-complete rebuild - 4-5 new foundations are added to the frame(s) with queen on - that creates the "rebuild" situation
    - in addition, he'd rob hives of 1-to-X brood frames for this expansion projects/bee sales - those are also replaced by the "blanks" - more rebuilding pressure
    - all the while small nest size does not over-chill the nest when brood frames are replaced by the blanks - the nest is rather tight and dense with bees

    If not for the artificial "rebuilding" pressure, these bees would swarm in no time.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-17-2020 at 04:21 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    ......However, a smaller number of deeper frames sits much better with my way of doing things.
    LJ
    The 6-frame guy specifically addressed exactly this.
    Here, if I recall:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIre421dsFc

    He did try running the brood on small frames and backed out of it.
    With the already small brood nest, he feels full-size Dadants are a perfect fit AND there is much less commotion around them.

    This entire small frame trend is around the large boxes - remember?
    They try to address the weight with a small frame in a wide box.
    Why - just the same effect is achieved with larger frames in more narrow boxes - a simple thing.
    The larger frame == less woodwork/less bee-space == more efficient box usage.
    As long as the box-with-frames is light enough to lift - the large frames in it are a fine choice.
    Last edited by GregV; 09-17-2020 at 04:43 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    One negative of the 6-framers vs. the square 300x300 setup - energy efficiency for stand alone units (typical for me).
    With exact same area of the cross section, the 300x300 has ~10% less perimeter (the effect of the perfect square).
    Meaning, bees have less work do to conditioning the volume (either UP or DOWN).
    10% is significant.
    IF not for this, I'd go 6-7 frame hands down.

    Of course when you run hundreds of 6-framers, you'd simply line them up wall to wall with the long sides - a logical setup.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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