6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    "Each unit can go up to 12 boxes (before hitting the roof)."

    Above probably explains the reason for 6 framers. Working 35 pound supers of honey off of a?step ladder, twelve supers high would be a good workout!
    Zone 3b. If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by mgolden View Post
    "Each unit can go up to 12 boxes (before hitting the roof)."

    Above probably explains the reason for 6 framers. Working 35 pound supers of honey off of a?step ladder, twelve supers high would be a good workout!
    It is not a reason, it is a feature.

    He did try running 10-frame poli-hives on his trailer.
    Was terrible, reportedly.
    Imagine working with full-size deep boxes on the trailer - it is a no-go.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    On average he is running one set of 6 Dadant frames (the excluded brood nest) and 7 honey supers.
    Here is a brood nest inspection in July.
    6 brood frames (fully utilized) is sufficient.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FRfW5ZkGbg

    Pretty sure he said someplace he averages 50kilos from a unit (100-110lbs).
    One very full honey super is about 10 kilos (20 lbs).
    Last edited by GregV; 12-07-2019 at 06:05 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Hi Greg.

    I found myself reading an account yesterday of the controversy which developed between Heddon - who favoured a contracted 5-frame broodnest - and Dadant who, in contrast, championed a very large size, so as to maximise the queen's output.

    One of Heddon's claims was that pollen (in the form of stored bee-bread) was best left out in the field, so as to maximise both brood and honey production within the hive itself.

    I noticed during the Russian 6-frame inspection that all were very impressive brood combs, and other videos display equally impressive honey combs - but I cannot remember seeing much in the way of stored pollen. I'm sure that guy's area must be very rich in pollen, so this may not be an issue for his particular operation, but I've been wondering whether he has had anything specific to say about pollen storage ?

    Heddon was the first to invent (what he called) the 'queen-excluding honey board', initially made from strips of wood suitably spaced apart, and which were primarily intended to be placed between the brood box and the supers (which he was using for section honey production). However, it appears that his contracted broodnest provoked swarming, as he took to placing his queen excluder under the brood box as well, in order to confine the queen and thus prevent swarming.

    Again, does this Russian guy have anything to say about the issue of swarming, and any steps he takes to avoid this ?

    Sorry to burden you Greg, but this system of beekeeping looks to be very attractive indeed, and I can see me incorporating at least some of these ideas into my own operation, and so I'd like to identify any 'negatives' it might have as early as possible, so as to take steps to avoid them (if I can).
    'best
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  6. #25
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Hi Greg.

    I found myself reading an account yesterday of the controversy which developed between Heddon - who favoured a contracted 5-frame broodnest - and Dadant who, in contrast, championed a very large size, so as to maximise the queen's output.

    One of Heddon's claims was that pollen (in the form of stored bee-bread) was best left out in the field, so as to maximise both brood and honey production within the hive itself.

    I noticed during the Russian 6-frame inspection that all were very impressive brood combs, and other videos display equally impressive honey combs - but I cannot remember seeing much in the way of stored pollen. I'm sure that guy's area must be very rich in pollen, so this may not be an issue for his particular operation, but I've been wondering whether he has had anything specific to say about pollen storage ?

    Heddon was the first to invent (what he called) the 'queen-excluding honey board', initially made from strips of wood suitably spaced apart, and which were primarily intended to be placed between the brood box and the supers (which he was using for section honey production). However, it appears that his contracted broodnest provoked swarming, as he took to placing his queen excluder under the brood box as well, in order to confine the queen and thus prevent swarming.

    Again, does this Russian guy have anything to say about the issue of swarming, and any steps he takes to avoid this ?

    Sorry to burden you Greg, but this system of beekeeping looks to be very attractive indeed, and I can see me incorporating at least some of these ideas into my own operation, and so I'd like to identify any 'negatives' it might have as early as possible, so as to take steps to avoid them (if I can).
    'best
    LJ
    LJ, all good questions.

    Pollen - interestingly, the guy addressd the issue specifically in some context

    So, he runs a very compressed broodnest -the queen is limited to just 6 deep Dadants at all times.
    (outside of ONE-TIME expansion in spring when he pulls 4 frames of brood UP and replaces those with 4 new frames DOWN - once per a season move).
    Most any average queen keeps those 6 frames completely full of brood - bar to a bar - most of the season.
    The bees put some pollen into those frames, but very limited because the queen vigorously competes for those same cells.

    Overall, he stated - in his operation the bees immediately eat the pollen they bring in.
    Very little stored over summer. There is some, but not much.
    Also, he is based in a mild region where the very first pollen flow starts even in February - so running into pollen dearth during the spring expansion is not a problem for him - there is enough ongoing pollen flow for him.
    Also, the very last flows (September/October?) do get stored in the brood chamber (along with the late pollen) - as queen is slowing down, she competes less for the cells - the foragers finally get the upper hand in the brood nest and pack it enough for the short winter.

    LJ, as of me - I have much colder/longer winter and very cold/long/unstable spring.
    I see myself wintering on a double-stack of 6-frame batteries; that for me should allow for more long-term pollen stores.
    In short, I see myself running the brood in 6-over-6 mode (NOT 12 single-level per classic Dadant and yet the same capacity).
    Exact same volume - more ergonomic setup for both me and the bees.
    Or maybe 6 deeps-over-6 shallows (total capacity of 9 Dadants).
    Last edited by GregV; 12-12-2019 at 10:51 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Again, does this Russian guy have anything to say about the issue of swarming, and any steps he takes to avoid this ?
    The guys has been laughing at lots of comments/questions about this exact issue.
    No swarming problems AS ANTICIPATED by many.
    He commented how the 10-frame based mobile beeks often chase the swarms on their foraging stops (or just let the swarms go).
    He does not have the issue and can focus on this honey production instead.

    ONE-TIME vertical spring expansion DOWN - done proactively does it all.
    He calls it the "expansion down" - his term (see the picture).

    You can see that this expansion allows for MORE brood during the spring expansion - up to TEN frames.
    But afterwards - there is NEVER more than 6 brood frames present - this is sufficient and actually desired for the honey production focused colonies.

    The schematics of it:
    ExpansionDOWN.jpg
    If done correctly, you should see the Russian letter "Г", that represents the final positions of the old frames after the "expansion down".
    This letter represent the "expansion down" which allegedly prevents swarming urges very well for our guy on his 6-framers.

    I do picture a very simple idea - on the foot-print of a single 12-frame square Dadant (with its monster weight) you run TWO 6-frame units with TWO queens (just stacked side-by-side and strapped together if needed).
    You manage them autonomously; the bee density is always high, including early spring; the both queens work in optimal mode (actually they are NOT overworked).
    Seems to me a pair of 6-frame unit will beat down a single 12-frame unit in most any way imaginable - on the same exact foot-print.
    This includes the human ergonomics too.


    I did not forget - you asked about another 6-frame operation video where there was apparently NO QX in use.
    LJ, I don't know, I have not found an answer.

    The mobile guy does depend on QXs.
    BUT, once he mentioned how he forgot to install a QX - the queen then laid UP as high as 4-5 boxes, BUT only in the middle TWO frames in each box.
    If you a commercial guy and must work by a box and do so very quickly - that is a NO-GO for him.
    Also, this could mean more brood that you really want (the brood quickly goes beyond the 6 original frames and up to 10-12 frames then).
    As this guy stated repeatedly - he wants more honey, he does not want more bees.
    And he gets exactly that ALL season long - starting with the very early flows from the fruit trees and locust (none of the continuous and long and expensive build-up in anticipation of some "main flow" - which may never come).

    BUT, if you are not under constant time pressure - you can consolidate the nest down at your own pace if so desired OR the bees will do it for you anyway (just will take longer).
    Last edited by GregV; 12-12-2019 at 11:07 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    LJ, you gonna like these.

    Though a 7-framer - already feels a bit heavy as for me.
    Maybe a bit over-engineered to my taste.
    Still cool.

    If you'll ask - what are those custom small frames?
    Those are from his mating nucs.
    It is a mating nuc dump (after the queen sales and such).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8czVT1Rr78
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkqaudwbCSI
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    LJ, you gonna like these.

    Though a 7-framer - already feels a bit heavy as for me.
    Maybe a bit over-engineered to my taste.
    Still cool.
    Spot on Good links, thanks.

    I agree - a tad over-engineered - but still great fun. It's really good to see what other people (and from a different culture) can come up with.

    I've noticed that a lot of Russian guys prefer the style of box with 4x battens (2 at each end) projecting downwards - called 'Horns', I think ?
    Not seen over here, but I know you like that type of box.
    'best
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  10. #29
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Spot on Good links, thanks.

    I agree - a tad over-engineered - but still great fun. It's really good to see what other people (and from a different culture) can come up with.

    I've noticed that a lot of Russian guys prefer the style of box with 4x battens (2 at each end) projecting downwards - called 'Horns', I think ?
    Not seen over here, but I know you like that type of box.
    'best
    LJ
    Yes, over-engineered.
    The "Horn" hives are supposed to be stupid simple and dirt cheap.
    That is the main premise of them.

    Yeah, those "Horns" a recent invention of an Ukrainian commercial, mobile beekeeper by the name Palivoda.
    He created this new equipment style based on some cheap storage boxes he provisioned somewhere.
    He kept the "horns" as they were designed-in onto the storage boxes (whatever the boxes were for originally - but that box locking style is used by the military that I am aware).
    The idea being, he was not spending his hard earned money on expensive equipment - instead repurposed his equipment from the stuff he found.

    The "Horns" are in vogue big time now (not even needed sometimes, functionally).
    They are really meant for the mobile operators - keep the boxes together when transporting.

    I'd call them "pegs", as in "peg hive".
    I run multiple yards, I am too a mobile operator, just of a micro-scale.
    Unfortunately, moving the horizontal rigs alone is not a piece of cake (always a possibility that'd I rather avoid).
    Looking ahead, a single-person portable hive is a good option for me - hence the 6-frame peg hive idea.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    I have been chewing on this a bit.....
    thinking about Ian Steppler's 6f nucs pushed together for production with a common super https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ney-production
    and the effect of a muti queen hive and why they make more honey....

    We talk a lot about drift and how to fight it, but I wonder......maby do we have it wrong?
    The hives in this thread are mostly pushed tight together.. like one would see in the primitive Yemen hives and Egyptian tube hives where they are in stacks/walls .....
    I wonder if we are missing something, an advantage to the stacks.. shared thermal regulation for sure .. but I wonder if drift is happening enuf to create the "muti queen" effect.. maby not as much as a shared super, but I do wonder

    Looking ahead, a single-person portable hive is a good option for me - hence the 6-frame peg hive idea.
    they look fun,, I often wonder why seeley didn't suggest a 5x5X5 format in stead of a 10xsuper
    for some reason I would have thought you would be attracted to something like a comfort box hive as a alpine type stand in...
    fast easy cheap build, manage/harvest by the box, small enuff to pull a harvest the 1st year, highly splitabul, etc

  12. #31
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I have been chewing on this a bit.....
    thinking about Ian Steppler's 6f nucs pushed together for production with a common super https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ney-production
    and the effect of a muti queen hive and why they make more honey....

    We talk a lot about drift and how to fight it, but I wonder......maby do we have it wrong?
    The hives in this thread are mostly pushed tight together.. like one would see in the primitive Yemen hives and Egyptian tube hives where they are in stacks/walls .....
    I wonder if we are missing something, an advantage to the stacks.. shared thermal regulation for sure .. but I wonder if drift is happening enuf to create the "muti queen" effect.. maby not as much as a shared super, but I do wonder


    they look fun,, I often wonder why seeley didn't suggest a 5x5X5 format in stead of a 10xsuper
    for some reason I would have thought you would be attracted to something like a comfort box hive as a alpine type stand in...
    fast easy cheap build, manage/harvest by the box, small enuff to pull a harvest the 1st year, highly splitabul, etc
    All these multi-queen setup talks always made me wonder - why the complications?
    Just set two nucs in the space of a single hive (same footprint) and let each work autonomously.
    Simpler - same result.
    If you think of it - it boils down to a very simple idea - MORE queens working on the SAME footprint.
    Of course you got more bees on the SAME footprint.
    More bees - more potential output.
    But a 5-frame is really too small.
    6-7 frame is better.
    8 frame is pushing into a heavy/big side.

    Call me subjective, but....
    TS is.... closed-minded in many ways (the hive design included).
    He is stuck in this 10-frame Lang box and refuses(?) to even consider anything alternative.
    Really is a shame that way, but true.
    He is brilliant, ... and one step to the left - utterly uninformed - just puzzles me.

    More I learn about this 6-frame system - more excited I am because:
    - I got a box full of un-assembled deep Dadant frames I scored last year
    -- converted about 10 frames into my own deep frames (narrow-deep), but really feel shame altering the Dadant deeps from their actual intended use (wasting my time on this);
    -- then I found these 6-framers - wow - perfect use for my stash
    - also got too many Lang med frames - ready to use
    -- and so I feel like building a dual set of the 6-frame boxes around the frames I already got
    - in addition, selling away bees in this format is easier (who knows - I may have too many one day)

    These are just about the same comfort box hive as the alpine hives AND I have ready frames.
    For the alpines I must make a zillion frames (starting with the frame-building rig).
    So the labor/time saving is really attractive for now.

    So for the next season I want make a set of small alpine frames to use in my current horizontals - purely for the honey harvest - and eventual alpine hives too.

    But instead of building few alpine hives, it will be few 6-framers.

    Want to make a mirrored (side-by-side) set of the 6-frames based on the frame stash I got.
    I intend to run these in pairs - that the idea for now.
    Will make asymmetric entrances - to suit the paired setups better.

    Each box will only take 6 live frames max.

    Probably shoot for about 10 boxes (8 + 8 + 2 spares) and the tops/bottoms, which should be identical and multi-use (top or bottom - no significant difference).
    These will be elongated rectangles to fit the common Lang sizes - the deep Dadant at the bottom 1-2 boxes (a deep Dadant just spans two boxes) - the rest Lang mediums as high as it takes to fit the nectar intake.
    Actually want to make the boxes similar to 8-frames by external dimension - the two end positions will be taken by very light, insulated end-boards (repurposed plastic frames - pure trash otherwise) - will be very light double-wall setup (to make up the 3/4 thin boards running the long way) - the air space behind the end-board will be passable by the bees.
    The short sides will be made of x2 wood - with the "pegs".
    These should allow for fine wintering outside (I have it colder than those 6-frame runners from the Southern Russia).

    The 6-framer cross-section should be about 9x18 ~160-170 square inches.
    To compare, the square alpine 13x13 cross-section is ~170 inches square.
    And we have very compatible, tight cross-sections with both designs - forcing the up-and-down bee ergonomics (no side-to-side wandering about).

    A bonus - multi-use function allowed by the general sizing/peg-construction (swarm-trap/bee-transporter/frame-carrier/utility box/work stool) - all by 1-2-3 same standard boxes combined as needed for the job.

    Something like this.
    6-FramePegHive.jpg
    Last edited by GregV; 12-16-2019 at 11:54 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    I looked at the 6 frame box idea quite a few years ago and calculated that half sized frames just fit nicely crossways in the box. If you are into using small mating nucs it would be easy to get them drawn out by putting a box of the half frames into the stack of 6 conventional lang frame boxes.

    I like using excluders and wonder if a 10 frame sized one could be cut in half and set into wooden frames that would extend to cover the six frame box.

    My experience with the paired stacks of 4 framers set on a common 10 frame bottom tells me that I would prefer each of the 6 framers have its own bottom. Sure, slide them together for mutual support and heat sharing, winter wrapping etc.

    I have found 5 frame deep boxes stacked 3 high is a very good wintering config. The bees cant get stranded on one side away from their stores. 6 framers should be similar. Having more queens working would should be good insurance. Less of the "all your eggs in one basket" idea; more queens to select from for breeding purposes.

    I can see some advantages of the Layens style deep hives; handling one frame at a time instead of moving boxes is something I have to look at; vertical is the easy way to go in the winter but I am not a fan of crush and strain so I want to stick with my small extractor. The Layens frames are not extractor friendly and appear to me to incur quite a bit of solidified honey on the frames. Having your system still based on standard Lang frames is attractive if you want to sell or share resources.

    That "peg hive" vertical corner joiner piece makes for simple construction and would also lend itself to using narrower boards. If you weren't concerned with the positive, no slide efffect, you could make the corner piece flush with top and bottoms.

    I think I am talking myself into building some 6 frame equipment!
    Frank

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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    .......each of the 6 framers have its own bottom. ....

    ....The Layens frames are not extractor friendly .....

    That "peg hive" vertical corner joiner piece makes for simple construction and would also lend itself to using narrower boards. If you weren't concerned with the positive, no slide efffect, you could make the corner piece flush with top and bottoms.

    I think I am talking myself into building some 6 frame equipment!
    This is why I dumped the Layens' frame from the start - why create an artificial problem for myself (while the bees don't care of a slight difference).


    There should be nothing common between the 6-frame units (none of those common supers or common bottoms).
    Completely autonomous.
    If really wish, cover them with a common sheet of plywood as a "common roof", as in here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFAIS1VWJqE

    Immediate benefit - while on the same stand, can orient the hives at 90/180 degrees to each other - you will mate the queen then (side-by-side mating will have inflated loss).

    That "peg" corner is VERY strong (the screws go in PERPENDICULAR to the wood grain - an important detail people forget/unaware).
    Stupid simple to construct; no fancy tooling is needed; done from pure scraps; error tolerance is high (unlike in the furniture-type corners).

    And you don't have to have four protruding pegs - TWO strong pegs on the diagonal corners will do (remaining two corner will have shortened pegs).
    And so you have both peg corners AND the ability to still slide/turn the box (close enough to the "slide" feature) - if concerned with saving few bees OR need to break the boxes apart.
    AND with only TWO protruding diagonal pegs you can flip the box with pegs pointing down and interlock two boxes into a very strong lock IF so desired.
    The frames can be dropped into the box regardless which way the pegs are looking (up or down).
    The facing pegs should have 3-5mm space between them (they are no touching) - this is to insert the hive tool when breaking the boxes apart - you don't pry apart the boxes (damaging them) - you pry apart the pegs (the pegs are expandable components).

    The nearly identical tops/bottom will have identical holes drilled in - entrance for the bottoms/ventilation for the tops.
    The bottoms and tops can immediatelly substitute each other temporarily as needed (substitute permanently with minor mods).
    Last edited by GregV; 12-17-2019 at 10:27 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Found another channel.
    Another alternative 6-frame hive style.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBC...hdYPeCw/videos
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    So I largely ignore most all SC talks lately as mostly irrelevant to me anymore.

    Well, was looking at this comment by MB:
    But even if it (GV: SC) doesn't help with varroa, you get longer lived bees:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...31#post1770031

    Well, two ideas came to mind.

    First (in the small hive context) - it seems to me all the benefits of the artificially small cells have to do with the artificially enlarged hive where the bees have to over-work to compensate for the excessive cavity space. Then we have the non-ending SC repeat as well as 1.25 frame repeat talks (as if beneficial).

    It seems to me - once you start putting the bees into more natural/ergonomic volumes - the cell size/frame width will be less significant (if relevant at all).
    Once I have some 6-frame equipment going, I will not spend anymore of my time shaving down the frames - enough time spent already.
    Natural cell on commercial frames will do.

    Second (more general) - why keep comparing artificially small SC cells to artificially large LC cells (two irrelevant and artificial techno-standards)?

    One should compare the artificial SC (or LC) to the natural cell and then make the same determination.
    Any studies yet?
    I doubt it.
    Yes - the findings could be inconvenient to the foundation producers.
    I don't know, just guessing here.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    I've been thinking about these long rows of 'nuc-boxes' overnight. That system clearly works, and so that should be good enough 'as is' - but - there's something about this method of arranging boxes which has been nagging away at me ...

    At first sight one could imagine that there would be 'shared-warmth' all along the line - but is there ?

    If I were to position two boxes side-by-side, as is done with the Kirkhof system or Mike Palmer's dual-nuc stacks, then these could be butted-up hard against each other and maybe even clipped or strapped together. That would provide (as good as one could ever produce with separate boxes) shared warmth - or at least would eliminate from the elements one exposed wall each, which would then perhaps approximate to the same thing.

    But - with multiple boxes 'side-by-side' there will always be small - maybe 1 or 2mm air gaps between the boxes. These would have to exist in order to be able to remove at will any one box from within a line of boxes - and - the presence of such air-gaps will prevent the firm contact necessary for either shared warmth or the complete elimination of exposed walls.

    Is there then a need for some kind of workaround here ? Maybe not - but if so, then what could this consist of ?

    As I see things, it is necessary to retain the air gaps in order to be able to remove and replace boxes at will - all that would be required is some method of sealing those gaps. Perhaps bottom entrances left exposed, but with a canvas or plastic sheet covering the whole line from the entrance upwards, and strapped down, so as to effectively trap the air within those gaps ? (*)

    My reason for posting is that I see enormous potential in running something along these lines in a static apiary - although much smaller in my case: perhaps four or five 5-frame nucs (2 or 3 high) to begin with - and I'd like to iron-out any wrinkles beforehand during the Winter period.
    LJ

    (*) I'm only thinking in terms of over-wintering - during the season I doubt this would be an issue.
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    At first sight one could imagine that there would be 'shared-warmth' all along the line - but is there ? .
    My short answer - no.

    Granted, the subject of bees "not heating the hive" has been discussed into the blue face.
    Of course, IF the bees do not heat their own hive, how can they share any heat with a hive one over?
    The residual heat losses from one hive are not enough to ENTER the other hive and heat it.

    Anyway, unsure why this sharing heat topic keeps coming up as if true; I don't see it as a significant phenomenon.


    There is, however, wind-blocker effect (which amounts to reducing heat loss - which can be qualified as if "heat sharing" I suppose ......)

    Also there is a factor of communal heat output IF the entire hive community is placed into an enclosure and/or wrapped together (remember that "wintering in Siberia" video where the snow was melting) - also amounts to reducing heat loss. I don't know, back to the definitions again.

    MB does similar nuc wintering techniques (see his site).
    Last edited by GregV; 12-20-2019 at 10:11 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    ...Perhaps bottom entrances left exposed, but with a canvas or plastic sheet covering the whole line from the entrance upwards, and strapped down, so as to effectively trap the air within those gaps ?.
    LJ,

    I see myself running these units in tight pairs where they will have a common wind-blocking wrap around the both.
    They will be constructed so that the units will be physically touch each other (not a gap) - not a problem in this particular setup.
    I want them in pairs so that the units support each other not to fall over (a possibility for a narrow hive) - this is the primary reason for the setup.

    As far as the the "heat sharing" - not concerned of it as insignificant parameter.
    I will instead focus on insulation of each individual unit.
    One possibility is - inserting a sheet of foam between the units (since it is easy to do) - only further insulating the units from each other AND from the energy loss.
    A foam sheet between the boxes will minimize the air movements to virtual zero - this is because the foam "gives", unlike wood.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #39
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    Sep 2016
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    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    1,991

    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    Granted, the subject of bees "not heating the hive" has been discussed into the blue face.
    Of course, IF the bees do not heat their own hive, how can they share any heat with a hive one over?
    The residual heat losses from one hive are not enough to ENTER the other hive and heat it.
    But of cource they heat the hive,( If they didn't they won't need a cavity), the hive wall will be warmer then the winter air temp, you can clearly see this in thermal pictures.
    so that means less heat loss if 2 walls are pushed together. realistically even an empty box pushed up against a hive is an insulation gain.

    a cluster puts out about 20 watts
    Easy to see in shed wintering programs, they have to cool them. The bees arn't just heating the hive, they are heating the entire building!

  21. #40
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    Suffolk Co, NY, USA
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    Default Re: 6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator

    But of cource they heat the hive,( If they didn't they won't need a cavity)
    Is that to say they don't need a cavity for any other reasons?
    That is quite a leap if you answer yes.

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