Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ?? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    Fusion covers good points. Depending on the climate/flow patterns a natural swarm may guarantee that neither part of the colony makes any harvestable honey. That is pretty much where I am at unless I make the decisions and fudge the separation agreement.

    The various method discussed can make a big difference in the resulting age group balance in the two groups.
    Frank

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >PS: the package is - neither swarm or split - just chaotic pile of unrelated bees sold by the pound - it is bulk insect packaging/shipping method for pure commercial purposes

    While I agree there is some difference because of the chaotic nature of a package, they still behave very much like a swarm. Every year I hang a queen cage from a package in a tree to show how a swarm behaves and they act exactly like a swarm, finding and clustering around the queen etc.

    >I would disagree with the need to separate nurse bees from foragers. In a real swarm you get bees of all ages.

    I agree a swarm has SOME bees of all ages, but the overall age tends to be young which is part of why they are so good at making wax. But without the field bees they might never find a new home.
    The things that nature accomplishes amazes me. What causes the foragers in a swarm to be so dedicated to the queen that they will stay at a new location and not return home?

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    A healthy and near-normal swarm will rarely fail.
    Wishful thinking. If the above statement was true we would have been overrun with bee colonies decades ago. Reality tells us that a healthy population throws a swarm every year, and a stable population is not growing in numbers year over year. This tells us that colonies must die off at the same rate swarms are issued.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    Wishful thinking. If the above statement was true we would have been overrun with bee colonies decades ago. Reality tells us that a healthy population throws a swarm every year, and a stable population is not growing in numbers year over year. This tells us that colonies must die off at the same rate swarms are issued.
    Without support - most untimely/late swarms will die.
    That is why bee colonies do not overrun anything.
    No argument and this is common knowledge.

    WITH support - most untimely/late swarms will live.
    They want to live and only require minimal support to achieve that goal
    I want all and any late swarms (in fact, I prefer late swarms over early swarms - the later swarms are more likely to live in a CF project).
    Give them to me.
    I got lots of resources and cheap sugar for worthy projects.

    That was my point.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    ......Depending on the climate/flow patterns a natural swarm may guarantee that neither part of the colony makes any harvestable honey.....
    Not all colonies are required to make honey.
    So unsure what is the point of such a harvest "loss".

    There is always an expansion/replacement department and a production department.
    You can not really have all in one; can not have your cake and eat it too.
    If you don't operate this way, unsure how else can you stay afloat.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Not all colonies are required to make honey.

    You can not really have all in one; can not have your cake and eat it too.
    If you don't operate this way, unsure how else can you stay afloat.
    Yes, that is why I use the Snlelgrove board to satisfy the swarm urge, raise another queen and several capped cells under well fed conditions while diverting workers back to the part of the colony that could be considered to have swarmed. It will usually make two mediums of honey.

    The other part of the colony usually needs some fall feeding to get winter ready in a five over five stacked nuc box arrangement.

    You can kind of "have your cake and eat it too" but it takes a bit of fiddling. Doing it with separated colonies can similarly favor the strength of one or the other depending on the beekeepers imagination. Local conditions such as whether robbing is rare or almost a certainty, should, as mentioned be considered.
    Frank

  8. #27
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    Apr 2015
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    woodland, wa usa
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    Me, I reduce it down to essentially getting queenie out with enough bees to tend to her to keep this new "swarm" going. = fake swarm split.

    And 1-2 frames will do it, leaving enough of the field bees in the mother hive that it does not get shut down or eliminate your surplus like a 50/50 split would be more likely to do.

  9. #28
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    >The mix-dumped packages on the other hand - a coin toss.

    True. Someone (Dean Stiglitz or Sam Comfort) said a swarm is like you and your friends decide to go start an organic farm and you go somewhere ans start planing a garden. A package is like you're on a bus with a bunch of strangers and it breaks down in the middle of nowhere and you have to start growing food or you'll starve to death. But a swarm and a package do have a lot in common. What they don't have in common is that energy that a swarm has and a package lacks.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Definition of "Artificial Swarm" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    "Artificial Swarm" is a beekeeping term that gets bandied about a great deal, but I have come to believe that those using the term are frequently speaking about different occurrences.

    I am not asking HOW you split your hives, or HOW you create an Artificial Swarm. The variations in technique are too many to list and really not the point of this thread.

    I am asking what must be accomplished, in your own definition, to have performed a successful Artificial Swarm?

    Must the queen be removed from her original location?
    Must there necessarily be a reduction in population?
    Must there be a permanent separation of nurse and forager bees?
    Must there be a specific distribution of capped brood and/or open brood?
    Must there be a brood break?

    Again, I am not so much interested in how you do it, but what you are trying to accomplish.

    I have my own ideas, but wanted to learn from others.

    Thank you for any replies.
    As other have weighed in this is My Opinion:
    Must the queen be removed from her original location? Yes as in the real swarm will have the queen leave
    Must there necessarily be a reduction in population? no one one can use bees from several hives to make the "artificial" swarm bigger than the original hives
    Must there be a permanent separation of nurse and forager bees? no, a swarm has both
    Must there be a specific distribution of capped brood and/or open brood? no no brood in a swarm
    Must there be a brood break? yes as there is no brood carried by the swarm

    so really the Artificial swarm would be empty Box with or with out foundation, find "a queen" add her, shake in both nurse and forager bees. Very Similar to hiving a package. Anything with brood in either part would be a split of some sort.
    GG

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