Is the Bee-Space necessary ? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    LJ was quick to point that out in the second paragraph of his original post.

    Did the Bee-Space exist before 1850 ? Well, actually no. But that's not to say that the bees hadn't been creating such a spacing between their combs for several million years before then, it's just that the Bee-Space per se didn't exist until someone observed, measured and thus defined it.
    Of course it existed, but Langstroth is credited for recognizing its importance and defining it. Prior to that, the term did not exist, even though the space always has.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    Thanks JWP - you're much quicker on the keyboard than me As I'd already written this, I'll let it stand ...

    You're obviously 'not getting it'. 'It' being the distinction between a particular activity and a concept based on that activity. The 'Bee-Space' is a term used by humans. It is a concept which has involved the coining of a term. Therefore the term bee-space and the concept of bee-space cannot possibly have existed until there were humans in existence to 'invent' the term.
    Perhaps it might help if I include a short extract from an award-winning academic paper I once wrote ? In this part I quote extensively from Robert Pirsig, an Americam academic you may have heard of ? He's talking about Gravity rather than the Bee-Space, but the argument is pretty-much the same. The reason that Gravity and the Bee-Space are both inventions and not discoveries is that they required conception in order to exist as concepts. Conception is of course a process of creation, and not discovery.

    Pirog writes:

    "Modern man has his ghosts and spirits too .. the laws of physics and of logic ... the number system ... the principle of algebraic substitution. These are ghosts. We just believe in them so thoroughly they seem real."

    "... it seems completely natural to presume that gravitation and the law of gravitation existed before Isacc Newton. It would sound nutty to think that until the seventeenth century there was no gravity."

    "What I'm driving at ... is the notion that before the beginning of the earth, before the sun and the stars were formed, before the primal generation of anything, the law of gravity existed."

    "Sitting there, having no mass of its own, no energy of its own, not in anyone's mind because there wasn't anyone, not in space because there was no space either, not anywhere - this law of gravity still existed ?"

    "If that law of gravity existed ... I honestly don't know what a thing has to do to be nonexistent. It seems to me that the law of gravity has passed every test of nonexistence there is. ... And yet it is still 'common sense' to believe that it existed."

    "If you think about it long enough ... you finally reach only one possible, rational, intelligent conclusion. The law of gravity and gravity itself did not exist before Isaac Newton. No other conclusion makes sense. And what that means ... is that the law of gravity exists nowhere except in people's heads! It's a ghost!
    We are all of us very arrogant and conceited about running down other people's ghosts but just as ignorant and barbaric and superstitious about our own." (111)

    I then write:

    Pirsig is not suggesting of course that apples didn't fall to the ground before Newton, they certainly did - it's just that it wasn't 'gravity' causing them to fall. They fell because that's what apples did. They only fell as a result of 'gravity' after gravity had been conceived of, and described by Newton.
    When asked "why does 'everybody' believe in the law of gravity then?", Pirsig's answer touches upon an important and sensitive issue; "Mass hypnosis. In a very orthodox form known as 'education'." (112)

    By 'mass hypnosis' Pirsig is referring to the process which I have described in this paper as being that of indoctrination. Pirsig then proceeds to summarise earlier points made regarding hypostatised metaphysical abstractions;

    ... and so on.

    Of course, you may think the above is also "Bull crap" - but then I can't do very much about that, as people see what people see.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    I don't think the bees arr at all interested in the parsing of the concept or who put a name to it, but I know how predictably they will deal with it in anything similar to common Langstroth equipment.

    Now it might be of interest to know that if they occupy garbage can or outhouse sized boxes that some of those relationships are not so applicable. I guess I will just have to deal with those deviations when or if that situation presents itself.
    Frank

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    The bees understand the concept of bee space without knowing the term for it. Now if I could just teach them the concept of straight comb. I found out earlier this year that given a box of foundationless frames, the bees will totally ignore the nice straight starter strips I provided and build comb in everything but a straight line, cross combing an entire deep. Of course, all these combs were 3/8" apart and the bees managed to completely fill the box.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    Yes they seem to like to throw in a few curves. I have pondered putting starter tabs out near the endbars and leave the center bare. That might make them start centered at the ends first and then head in a straight line for the center. I can get nice foundationless drone drawn though. I may visit the foundationless idea a bit more in the future as the price of foundation has really taken a jump for us in Canada with the dollar exchange and now gettting hit with Michigan sales tax. For just producing bees it does not matter too much what the frames look like. You want them decent looking though if you are selling nucs.
    Frank

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    I've never had that much of a problem with the girls drawing-out comb below the top-bar - my problem used to be what happens above the top bar.

    For a while I tried 'soft' Crown Boards (Inner Covers), but unlike the Russian videos which Greg often links to, where the bees appear to ignore the loose plastic sheet and stay well down on their combs, my ladies always wanted to move around above the top bars, and thus directly underneath the plastic sheet - forcing it upwards a 'bee-space' in some parts, effectively creating a maze of wax-walled tunnels across the width of the hive.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I've never had that much of a problem with the girls drawing-out comb below the top-bar - my problem used to be what happens above the top bar.

    For a while I tried 'soft' Crown Boards (Inner Covers), but unlike the Russian videos which Greg often links to, where the bees appear to ignore the loose plastic sheet and stay well down on their combs, my ladies always wanted to move around above the top bars, and thus directly underneath the plastic sheet - forcing it upwards a 'bee-space' in some parts, effectively creating a maze of wax-walled tunnels across the width of the hive.
    LJ
    It does happen, LJ, on the "russian videos" too - "my ladies always wanted to move around above the top bars, and thus directly underneath the plastic sheet".

    Basically, the key is to keep the soft inner cover pinned tight to the top bars (if using plastic, it is best to use heavy plastic; also good to press it down with some insulation/burlap).
    However, passing bees under the soft inner cover is beneficial in cold winter - allows the bees passage over the frame (often times - critical).
    People in winter even insert sticks between the soft inner cover and the top bars to created the passages.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    With regard to the Layens Beehive, what follows here are a couple of 'clarifiers' of errors, revealed just as soon as I discovered them, as I wouldn't want to continue misleading anybody ...

    It was while searching around the Worldcat Library for any extra info on DeLayens, that I noticed the edition list for his book 'Elevage Des Abeilles':

    1874-1875 1st edition
    1879-1883 2nd edition
    1893 3rd edition
    (1897 Layens died)
    1900 5th edition

    Eh - what about the 12th Edition ? It has never existed.

    I'd always accepted the 'apiculture-populaire' info that the .pdf copy downloadable from them was the 12th Edition - so how on earth did such a mistake occur ?
    Although guesswork, I think the answer lies in the heading of the Preface, which reads: "Preface de la Seconde Edition." Now I've often seen later editions of a book contain a Preface or Forward from earlier editions, presumably in order to illustrate what improvements have been made in the meanwhile (and justify the cost of a new edition !).
    And so perhaps this had also been assumed by the api-populaire bod - for De Layens could just have easily have written 'Preface' without mentioning the edition number.

    Anyway, that's my guess - and so when the api-populaire bod looked at the Frontispiece (the inside cover), he/she appears to have mis-read 'Deuxième Edition' (second edition), as 'Douzième Edition' (twelfth edition), as those words do look somewhat similar at a quick glance, and this would have been an easy mistake to make if in a hurry, and especially as the word 'Seconde' had been used elsewhere. Anyway, that's my best guess as to how this screw-up might have occured - but yes, I should have checked. So, some egg on my face on that one ...

    In contrast, this second screw-up is completely down to me. At the head of this thread is a diagram showing a Layens frame in what appears to be a beehive - only it's not. Following translation, it's now become clear that the 'hive' in question is in fact a 'carry box' designed to hold spare or loose frames, and/or for use as a swarm-carrying box - hence the total disregard for any 'Bee-Spaces'.

    However, I'm still keen to test the idea which that diagram had suggested, and which the Polish PoW appears to confirm - so this might just turn out to be an accidental discovery - or perhaps will result in even more egg on the face. Who knows ?
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    The bees understand the concept of bee space without knowing the term for it. Now if I could just teach them the concept of straight comb. I found out earlier this year that given a box of foundationless frames, the bees will totally ignore the nice straight starter strips I provided and build comb in everything but a straight line, cross combing an entire deep. Of course, all these combs were 3/8" apart and the bees managed to completely fill the box.
    JWPalmer. Hi try next year to recall the "cross comb" direction. rotate that hive so your frames are parallel to the way the combs were built. Then try to again add some foundation less frames. I'll bet you 2 bee stings that the bees will build the same way , but you now have your wooden ware the way they prefer.
    IMO this has to do with energy lines and flow in the earths crust, another discussion for another day. bottom line set the hive the way the bees prefer to draw comb and likely they will then "cooperate" with your perceived comb drawing desires. Another way one can do this is to put 2 drawn extracted combs in the center of the hive then flank them with the empty's, the start sometimes will flow out to the empty's. Could be wind direction, could be power lines , could be water flow under your place, who knows. if they prefer a direction, I simply rotate the hive to be parallel with that direction and move on to other projects.
    The Concept of straight Comb , is to not place your hive at an angle to what the bees prefer.
    GG
    P.S. easy way to determine this "direction" place an empty super on a hive with no frames, use a top inner cover. come back in 2 weeks and see what way they started to build. rotate hive, add frames, scrape the inner cover and done. BTW from one side of your yard to the other it may or may not be the same.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    Here are pictures of some of the comb after I cut out five of the frames in one big chunk.

    20190820_190012.jpg20190820_185951.jpg

    Normally I get the foundationless drawn out straight because I intermingle it with already drawn comb.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Here are pictures of some of the comb after I cut out five of the frames in one big chunk.

    20190820_190012.jpg20190820_185951.jpg

    Normally I get the foundationless drawn out straight because I intermingle it with already drawn comb.
    It appears as a very strong urge to build in THAT direction, not THIS direction.
    I am with GG.

    I am sure some will scoff at impact of magnetic, electric, "whatever" fields on the bee behaviors.
    And yet I have this PDF right on front of me - Es'kov, Microclimate of a beehive and regulating it, 1978.
    They have done lots of experimentation.

    One specific observation/proposal about late summer boosting the brood production in hives - periodic running of a well specified electric field in the hive.
    - 10 minutes every day for 2-3 weeks
    - frequency 100-800Hz
    - voltage 100V/cm
    The observation - amount of the brood 10x in the treatment hives vs. the control hives.
    I don't understand the significance of the numbers, but there is a difference.

    So the bees know of things and feel things that we have no idea about.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Here are pictures of some of the comb after I cut out five of the frames in one big chunk.

    20190820_190012.jpg20190820_185951.jpg

    Normally I get the foundationless drawn out straight because I intermingle it with already drawn comb.
    Nice Pics JWPalmer. I would try the line the 4 combs make that trend right as you go back into the combs from the side view pic. Did you also place 9 in a 10 frame box? Spacing seems a bit wide.
    First draw I have better luck with 10, do the hard de capping then go for 9 the second use. Have fun
    GG

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    This was 10 frames in a 10 frame box, standard dimensions. I do not scoff at the idea that bees prefer to build comb in certain directions, although I think it may have more to do with how the sun hits the hive. The three hives on this stand are facing south and are under a pair of dogwood trees. Where I am we are 10° W magnetic deviation in case that makes a difference. The hives aligned east/west and in full sun do appear to draw better and faster, but there may be a bit of bias in that observation.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Is the Bee-Space necessary ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    This was 10 frames in a 10 frame box, standard dimensions. I do not scoff at the idea that bees prefer to build comb in certain directions, although I think it may have more to do with how the sun hits the hive. The three hives on this stand are facing south and are under a pair of dogwood trees. Where I am we are 10° W magnetic deviation in case that makes a difference. The hives aligned east/west and in full sun do appear to draw better and faster, but there may be a bit of bias in that observation.
    I do not completely understand it but if they like to draw it in a certain way I have found turning the hive to be easier than fixing the comb.
    I even had a year where one hive carried very good and one drew comb very good, So I put the super on the draw hive when 6 frames had 3 inches of comb moved it to the other hive, once started the second hive would complete it fine, but they could never start their own. I moved that hive 20 feet over and the problem disappeared.

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