Two untreated hives in my bee yard - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Feb 2015
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    Rosebud Missouri
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    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Does the other bee keeper have as much right to the physical location as you have? If he does. You can move your bees. If he does not, then you are the boss.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

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  3. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Greenville, SC, USA
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    Default

    Thank you, all, for the sage advice. It’s really wonderful to be able to pop a question out there and get experienced advice from beekeepers all over the country if not the world. Thank you for sharing. My (still) friend will be moving his bees to a piece of property he owns in the mountains a few counties over. I will be helping him with a new Warré Hive he is going to try (with a colony I will sell him).

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
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    3,916

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Sounds like a winning solution. You get to keep both your bees and your friend.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  5. #24
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    Feb 2012
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    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    1,396

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerPutnam View Post
    I will be helping him with a new Warré Hive he is going to try (with a colony I will sell him).
    I wonder how that will end up for his TF inspirations
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat ;)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

  6. #25
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    Feb 2012
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    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by Tennessee's Bees LLC View Post
    The vast majority of new beekeepers can't afford the method of letting hives perish. Nor do they have the skill or wherewithal to raise and select stock. Fundamental beekeeping and mite control is more important. If they want to dabble with TF stuff then that should come after they learn some basics not before.
    I have never understood the logic of learning how to keep bees on T, then learning how to keep them off. Why not just start learning the basics with TF stock, if that’s how you want to raise bees I am almost certain if I would have started with treated packages or nucs, I would still be treating them.
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat ;)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
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    3,284

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by fieldsofnaturalhoney View Post
    I have never understood the logic of learning how to keep bees on T, then learning how to keep them off........
    The main issue is - the TF "experts" often will say - "just not treat".
    Then the new beeks will do exactly that - not treat (and get terrible results, more often then not).
    This is a huge disservice to everyone and my main gripe against the TF gurus.

    You don't say - just not treat.
    You discuss the situation on hand, and see what is possible, and what is not possible, and what to expect, and how to get from A to B.

    For sure if you sell T bees to an experimenting TF beek - at least be honest about it (the bees are likely to drop dead; the money are likely thrown away).
    All in all - issues all way around; I don't care T or TF.
    Last edited by GregV; 11-17-2019 at 05:02 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #27
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Gainesboro, Tennessee
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    1,428

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by fieldsofnaturalhoney View Post
    I have never understood the logic of learning how to keep bees on T, then learning how to keep them off. Why not just start learning the basics with TF stock, if that’s how you want to raise bees I am almost certain if I would have started with treated packages or nucs, I would still be treating them.
    That is what many of the gurus did. They treated and it didn't work so they stopped and made the switch and began on the pathways of enlightenment. Lo and behold they found super bees that not only survived every year but produce jaw dropping honey crops. Puhlease I was a kid when I got into beekeeping. As an adult I don't as easily fall for cons

    None of their methods worked for me after years of purchasing from TF nucs and queens (and the same goes for most beekeepers) when I started taking things serious I stopped losing bees. To think mites are not and will never be an issue is folly. Yes I do think the impacts can be lessened but the TF dogma is responsible for much irresponsible beekeeping. Nothing in life worth doing is easy

    This post is not me frustrated with you fields of honey it is me venting about the TF message in general
    Splitting a first year hive successfully https://youtu.be/ZfRTreQ-S9c

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    10,142

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    LOL. Kirk Webster has said that mites are our friends and we should actually build a shrine to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerPutnam View Post
    My (still) friend will be moving his bees to a piece of property he owns in the mountains a few counties over. I will be helping him with a new Warré Hive he is going to try (with a colony I will sell him).
    Sounds like the best outcome Miller. It is near certain that your friend will lose his hives, but at least his problems will not be your problems.

    Long as you don't get too involved in supplying resources to prop him up, which could be a bottomless pit.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Ocala, Florida, USA
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    612

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    To heck with all that, treat his hives and don't tell him. You have to protect your bees. In the time between now and next spring, maybe you can bring him around or help him find another place for his hives to die.
    This is what I do. I have and have had people keep bees in my yards. One guy wanted to be treatment free but his hives got treated when mine did. I finally told him so he wouldn’t think that his treatment free idea was working. The other one was fine with it. If they’re in your yard the should follow your rules. If they don’t like it they can leave, friend or not.

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    53,907

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    When treating doesn't work the people who believe in treating blame those who are not treating. Why not count mites and see how the untreated hives are doing? Mine do fine with no treatments at all...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  12. #31
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    When treating doesn't work the people who believe in treating blame those who are not treating. Why not count mites and see how the untreated hives are doing? Mine do fine with no treatments at all...
    Michael,
    I contend when you say your bees "do fine with no treatments at all", you should qualify and clarify.

    Specifically - what is exact status of your bees, what is their history, and legacy and lineage.
    What it took your personally to get from the A to the B (effort, time, decisions).
    This would be just one example.

    You should specify WHAT will it take and what to EXPECT (which is in most instances - high initial mortality - this is what I experience BUT I am ready for it as a part of the deal - the others, however, get cold feet very quickly).

    Otherwise, more people will attempt the same silly TF adventure with the worthless purchased package bees - and fail - and we are in the never-ending nonsense.
    The simple "do not treat" is a counter-productive talk and a part of the problem.

    If you do it on your site, that'd be just fine - so you can just refer to it.
    If you already have the list of such specs - great!
    If you offer your own stock for purchase as one prerequisite - that is fine also, because this is a valid prerequisite.

    Let us see the specs.
    One page outline be the best.
    A very practical no-nonsense list of items be the best.
    Cases/conditions where TF is not possible/too resource expensive would be great to include.

    Maybe I am missing out and have not read your site lately (no, I don't check it daily).

    Right now - all people hear - "Mine do fine with no treatments at all".
    This is not good enough, if not outright bad.
    Sends too many wrong signals.
    Creates too many doomed attempts at TF by unprepared/unqualified people - creates more problems for everyone in the end.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    >I contend when you say your bees "do fine with no treatments at all", you should qualify and clarify.

    I think I have many times.

    >Specifically - what is exact status of your bees, what is their history, and legacy and lineage.

    >What it took your personally to get from the A to the B (effort, time, decisions).

    >You should specify WHAT will it take and what to EXPECT (which is in most instances - high initial mortality - this is what I experience BUT I am ready for it as a part of the deal - the others, however, get cold feet very quickly).

    I had catastrophic losses when treating and when not treating when Varroa first arrived. After stopping treatment, regressing to natural size and after going to local survivor stock losses fell to at or below the average losses for Nebraska for that year. Losses go up and down depending on how harsh the winter is.

    >Otherwise, more people will attempt the same silly TF adventure with the worthless purchased package bees - and fail - and we are in the never-ending nonsense.
    The simple "do not treat" is a counter-productive talk and a part of the problem.

    My point isn't that not treating will necessarily succeed, but everyone is assuming failure without measuring to see if they are failing. Just because they are treating or not treating does not insure success or failure. Why not count mites before making assumptions about the outcome?

    >If you do it on your site, that'd be just fine - so you can just refer to it.

    There is what equates to 640 printed pages on my web site on what I do.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  14. #33
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    10,142

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I had catastrophic losses when treating.
    Did you check to see if the treatment worked?

    Cos if it worked, the catastrophic losses would not have been caused by mites.

    A hive that was treated but the treatment didn't kill the mites, is effectively in the same boat as an untreated hive.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  15. #34
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    ........

    There is what equates to 640 printed pages on my web site on what I do.
    And I also own your paper book in a fancy hard cover which I mostly read (parts that are important to me).

    But really, being an expert, you should be able to outline the essence of those 640 pages on a single outline and call it - "The List".
    And be done with it all.

    (Deleted the rest of this post... on a second thought).
    Last edited by GregV; 11-18-2019 at 10:05 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #35
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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  17. #36
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    ok; just moved my post to my own thread as it becomes a heavy off-topic.
    Last edited by GregV; 11-19-2019 at 08:34 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #37
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
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    5,213

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    To heck with all that, treat his hives and don't tell him. You have to protect your bees. In the time between now and next spring, maybe you can bring him around or help him find another place for his hives to die.
    That’s what I’d do until he decided to either treat or move his bees.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
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  19. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Union, Missouri
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    1

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    I wouldn't be concerned as I've been treatment free for over 12 years and for the most part my bees can handle it on their own. That said, Since your bees likely have little or no resistance to the mites; since you treat and probably got them from treated stock, it could be a big problem for you; especially if it's the first year for his bees being treatment free. Likely they will both die, probably in the winter, but maybe in the fall. If it's in the fall you'll end up with his mites. Put some distance between the two of you. Just a few hundred yards can make a big difference. If it's your yard, ask him to leave. If it's his you leave, and if it's on someone else's property you need to work out who gets it.

  20. #39
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    Mar 2015
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    Tehachapi, California, USA
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    18

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    Have you or your friend checked the 2 hives for their mite counts recently? Bees go into neighboring hives frequently. To my understanding bees carrying pollen and nectar are welcomed sometimes. Drones cross over to other hives too. It's one of the ways mites are spread to neighboring hives.

  21. #40
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    Mar 2012
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    Catskills, Delaware Cty, New York, USA
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    1,596

    Default Re: Two untreated hives in my bee yard

    I can’t help myself, I am chiming in with the somewhat experience with my experiment. I used a top bar hive placed within the apiary but on the far end away from the other hives and did not treat at all. The hive lasted 2 years before it collapsed; the bee’s absconded. There is also an EAS Master Beekeeper who did this experiment also to no avail. He does varroa presentations to various Clubs. Needless to say it is very disappointing. Another beekeeper who started with me, we were in the same Club, started out TF, did the classes out in the desert with Dee Lusby & husband, and Micheal Bush, knowledgeable TF people. I believe her hives, I don’t know how many, eventually collapsed after 3-4 yrs. If I remember correctly someone with hives moved into her area, maybe that’s what happened.
    Proverbs 16:24

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