Well this might change things!
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  1. #1
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    Default Well this might change things!

    It appears that "Queen bees have way more sex than we thought"
    What do you think?


    https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/...hought/9981786

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Well it might be news to some but it's old news it's basic information that has been known for years.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    I think they’re missing the fact that the gene diversity exists with both the queen and the drones.
    Rod

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the bee guy View Post
    Well it might be news to some but it's old news it's basic information that has been known for years.
    I have been studying bees for some time now. I have read countless books, read hundreds of web pages, watched hundreds of hours of videos. Never once did I hear or read up to 50 drones. The average seems to be 13.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    I have been studying bees for some time now. I have read countless books, read hundreds of web pages, watched hundreds of hours of videos. Never once did I hear or read up to 50 drones. The average seems to be 13.
    That's how it works you have some above the average some below. Not everyone has the tools to make that test most places only give you average I've only seen one place where they talked about mating with that many drones so I don't think it happens very much. I've pretty much put that into not something that's helping my hobby.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    They dont mention anything about controls or methodology on the sampling process where they discovered DNA from up to 50 different drones in brood samples from one hive.

    Having often more than one laying queen in a colony could really mess up the conclusions. I would like to see a graph showing the average number of proven matings. If say 12 were the actual norm, an outlier of 50 would be of virtually no real world significance.

    We need a lot more info on how they arrived at their conclusions.
    Frank

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Bees migrate from one hive to another, also abscond into hives, taken bees from normal hives and doing DNA tests would almost certainly lead to false results. I expect to do this with no room for error would need a totally isolated hive.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    It appears that "Queen bees have way more sex than we thought"
    What do you think?
    I imagine, again, lots of facts and contexts just got "lost in translation".
    How do you trust?

    You don't really know anymore, who/what generated this line (could be software-based random content generator, just as well - they are really, really good now days):

    Once mated, the queen will either return to her original hive where she will replace her mother, or take a swarm of worker bees from her original hive to start a new hive.
    What?
    What else is wrong in this article?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    Bees migrate from one hive to another, also abscond into hives, taken bees from normal hives and doing DNA tests would almost certainly lead to false results. I expect to do this with no room for error would need a totally isolated hive.
    While I agree that worker bees will wander to different hives, They tested the larvae. "By sampling more of the larvae, researchers are now finding that in one hive, bees may have up to 50 different fathers."

    There is no way of us knowing how controlled the experiment was because it does not say in the article, much the same as a lot of bee books that people seem to trust.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    The average seems to be 13.
    It is a bit complicated that queens of different racial groups may be higher or lower on average. Weather takes a hand, especially in cold or inclement conditions. It is also worth noting that the number of CSD alleles (sex determination allele) in honeybees is estimated to be about 135 worldwide. This article sheds light on the way CSD works. It turns out that CSD in heterozygous state activated the FEM gene which feminizes the resulting larva. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2758576/
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    While I agree that worker bees will wander to different hives, They tested the larvae. "By sampling more of the larvae, researchers are now finding that in one hive, bees may have up to 50 different fathers."

    There is no way of us knowing how controlled the experiment was because it does not say in the article, much the same as a lot of bee books that people seem to trust.
    Yes, some people are easy to convince. Some books exist that contain some very sketchy advice. The author of the article may be onto something enlightening but the presentation just does not appear to be much more than a non beekeepers interpretation. It requires a few too many leaps of faith to be accepted as written.
    Frank

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    While I agree that worker bees will wander to different hives, They tested the larvae. "By sampling more of the larvae, researchers are now finding that in one hive, bees may have up to 50 different fathers."
    In this study, one colony registered evidence of 77: https://dx.plos.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0199124

    Maybe the lady in question was wearing too much Chanel No.5 ... LOL

    But many queens showed far higher than expected mating figures. The authors write:
    If actual queen mating numbers are as high as we have detected here (Table 2; Fig 1), then honey bee queens would be better described by extreme hyperpolyandry than merely hyperpolyandry. At this point it remains unclear whether extremely high mating numbers in honey bee queens have simply been overlooked or whether this phenomenon could be a response to environmental and management conditions, as increased genetic diversity promotes colony functioning and ability to overcome disease and other stressors.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Forgot to mention ...

    In that paper: https://dx.plos.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0199124 evidence is presented that workers select specific larvae (assuming that they have a choice in the matter, and are not just limited to one or two which remain viable) from which to raise queens when faced with an emergency queenless situation.

    If this is indeed significant, then it does not bode too well for any method of queen-rearing which involves humans making larval selections.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Forgot to mention ...

    In that paper: https://dx.plos.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0199124 evidence is presented that workers select specific larvae (assuming that they have a choice in the matter, and are not just limited to one or two which remain viable) from which to raise queens when faced with an emergency queenless situation.

    If this is indeed significant, then it does not bode too well for any method of queen-rearing which involves humans making larval selections.
    LJ
    Ya, thatís what I like about Mel Disselkoenís method (OTS) of raising queens. Make notches in the comb where the right ages larvae are and let the bees decide with little intervention.
    Rod

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by rwlaw View Post
    Ya, that’s what I like about Mel Disselkoen’s method (OTS) of raising queens. Make notches in the comb where the right ages larvae are and let the bees decide with little intervention.
    Or don't even do that "notching" thing.
    Mel D is simply trapped into the "foundation is mandatory" idea - no, it is not.
    Which then results in his unnecessary "notching" hack.

    Once no foundation is used - no notching is needed at all.
    So far they ignored my attempts at notching every single time - no wonder - I am all natural comb.
    Bees do whatever/however/wherever they see fit to create the QCs - the queens turn out just as good for my needs.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Or don't even do that "notching" thing.
    Mel D is simply trapped into the "foundation is mandatory" idea - not.
    Which then results in his "notching" hack.

    Once no foundation is used - no notching is needed at all.
    Bees do whatever/however/wherever they see fit to create the QCs - the queens turn out just as good.
    I have to disagree. With fresh comb it’s not a problem, they’ll work the wax to their liking. Older comb has to have the layers of cocoons broken away to form a ledge for the bees to start the cells within the time parameters of a quality queen being produced.
    Rod

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by rwlaw View Post
    I have to disagree. With fresh comb it’s not a problem, they’ll work the wax to their liking. Older comb has to have the layers of cocoons broken away to form a ledge for the bees to start the cells within the time parameters of a quality queen being produced.
    Bees chew through wood, particle board, cardboard if have to - no problem.
    Old combs - they will shred as if nothing and do it quickly - IF have to and IF they care.
    Good example - observe what the robbers do to the combs, does not matter how old - now that is some motivation.

    But even that, why do the notching even on new combs over the foundation?
    Why?
    Mel D does that too (I have seen it on his materials).

    One theory maybe that the plastic foundation really does interfere with the normal bee life.
    For sure, I tested plastic foundation/frames this season - they ignored them for as long as they possibly could and forever in few cases.

    Anyway, the notching is too based on the premise that you place that notch in exactly the right place because you know better than the bees.
    You suggest the larvae to be turned into the queen material based on subjective visual criteria.
    Last edited by GregV; 11-12-2019 at 04:03 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Once no foundation is used - no notching is needed at all.
    So far they ignored my attempts at notching every single time - no wonder - I am all natural comb.
    Bees do whatever/however/wherever they see fit to create the QCs
    That's my story too. I used to raise natural queen cells on foundationless comb (still do) - the newer the comb the better - and on a couple of occasions I tried 'notching' a few cells (just for the hell of it), and the little beggars just ignored my selections and repaired those cell walls - then went ahead and chose whatever larvae they wanted - so I gave up interfering with the selection process, however they do it.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    Use a sharp knife to slice a gap into a comb of eggs and larvae and the bees will choose which cells to turn into queens. The only problem with this is that several cells may be joined together making separating them a problem.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Well this might change things!

    I had the same experience with notching as LJ. I would have to test it with old hard comb and see if notches in such comb would steer the bees cell selection. Maybe there are dowser bees!
    Frank

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