Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!! - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I like the idea someone put forth about using two standard medium boxes stacked to accommodate 12.75 inch deep frames. When you are making the sidebars it is not any harder to make them that length than the dadant deep spec. of 11.25"
    I once toyed with that idea myself and when I pulled up the drawing I did I see I also came up with 12.75" as the proper frame depth for a medium two-stack. However I don't really want to deal with having a one-off odd set of equipment, especially since 8-frame deeps with excluders seem to be working out well for me by letting me use something that is a size that still furnishes adequate brood chamber size but small enough where I can lift the honey super without needing to visit a quack-o-practor afterwards.
    Zone 6B

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  3. #22
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    Aug 2018
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    Sisters, Oregon
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Wasn't it Walt Wright who wrote something about the Evils of the Double Deep?
    Yes it was Walt Wright. BTW- congrats on a great year. But I think you also make the point that lifting those boxes can be a problem for some of us.
    I'm smart but at the end of the day I'm still the help.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LAlldredge View Post
    But I think you also make the point that lifting those boxes can be a problem for some of us.
    I do understand that. Just wondering about the "evil" bit.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JConnolly View Post
    .... Can you tell me what drove the decision to use 12.5" as your frame height dimension?
    That is exact standard height of the current Dadant deep frame ~ 12" (300mm)
    Nothing custom about.
    Well, they don't make them anymore in the US (on commonly) - that's the custom bit.

    Conveniently, this is how they fit into two Lang medium boxes as-is.
    Last edited by GregV; 10-28-2019 at 09:30 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JConnolly View Post
    Hold on a second Trish, will you clarify something for me? The Dadant Deep is 11-5/8" high (Dadant System of Beekeeping pp36). The modified jumbo, or what is commonly but incorrectly called the Dadant Deep, is 11-1/4" high (That's what Fusion_Power uses). If you are using 12.5" deep frames then you must be using something custom? Can you tell me what drove the decision to use 12.5" as your frame height dimension?

    Are we talking frame depth or box depth? The jumbo frames I have used for 40 years are 11 1/4" deep.
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  7. #26
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    Apr 2018
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    Northern Colorado, USA
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    613

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Anyone have a source (other than making them yourselves) for jumbo frames?

  8. #27
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    Default

    Try Rossmans. They had them maybe 5 - 8 years ago.

    (229)985-7200

    QUOTE=elmer_fud;1763405]Anyone have a source (other than making them yourselves) for jumbo frames?[/QUOTE]
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  9. #28
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    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    A pair of medim hive bodies will stack to 13 1/4" . To maintain standard bee space they require a frame depth top to bottom of 12 3/4"

    If you stick to standard birdsmouth dimensions on the ends of the sidebars you can use standard top and bottom bars. The sidebar has far fewer cuts. going with the non standard frame of 12.75 lets you try the extra deep concept with a minimum of equipment.

    Making the extra deep boxes is more demanding and hard to get that wide of board.
    Frank

  10. #29
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    Dec 2017
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    A pair of medim hive bodies will stack to 13 1/4" . To maintain standard bee space they require a frame depth top to bottom of 12 3/4".
    Not really.

    Keep in mind, this will be your bottom box.
    Any other boxes will be above and the bees spaces will be managed above only.

    Nothing to worry about regarding the under-frame space (even if using Lang Jumbo with 11 1/4" height - which is even better).
    In fact, I would want the under-frame even bigger - targeting 2-3 inch buffer space for ventilation and misc bee usage.
    Works fine for a hobbyist-style equipment.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    True on the frame dimension for a stationary bottom position. I like the quick start up drawing comb and spring expansion you get by placing above an existing box. I thought some benefit in having standard bottom bee space while getting them established. We have a very short season. Dandelions about 3rd week of May!

    There is no question about the economy of some of your quick and dirty methods of putting bees in boxes if you dont have to accommodate interchangeability. The bees sure wont care.

    Will see how this works out; I really have close to zero personal experience with single deeps or extra deeps.
    Frank

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    True on the frame dimension for a stationary bottom position. I like the quick start up drawing comb and spring expansion you get by placing above an existing box. .....
    Welcome to the Dadant single brood box management!

    You simply do a single box management as it is large enough as is (use follower boards to horizontally compress them as needed).
    When ready, then grow them up, but NOT until then (this is how the sufficient under-frame space is handy - to relief excessive swarming pressure if running a single box).

    If I am to try it, these will be a 8-10 frame Dadant boxes (the dedicated bottom boxes) - using the standard medium Lang boxes, additionally insulated (lots of these just rotting around for nothing good).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Are we talking frame depth or box depth? The jumbo frames I have used for 40 years are 11 1/4" deep.
    Trish said her frames were 12-1/2″ high. So that was where I was wondering, because the jumbo is 11-1/4″, while according to pp36 and the drawing on pp38 of Dadant's book, he used 11-5/8″ frames. The frame height is what I was trying to clarify.

    I was trying to work out how the 12-1/2″ dimension was chosen. If you use two medium boxes then 12-3/4″ is the right dimension. If you were to drive the dimension from available foundation and use two sheets of 5-5/8″ foundation you get 11-1/4″. Putting the foundation sheets in 1/4″ deep groves gives you an inside dimension of 10-3/4″, and a frame height of 11-7/8″. So that didn't seem to be the reason either. Neither one of those seem to be driving the frame size. Greg's explanation sort of works, but I was wondering if Trish had a reason.
    Last edited by JConnolly; 10-29-2019 at 02:05 PM.
    Zone 6B

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    I came up with the 12.75 from reading it. That would relate well for the height of two mediums. One and a half sheets of standard deep frames should do for foundation. I spliced waxed foundation for the 11.25 frames I made but too fiddly. Someone shows vertical joint in foundation but the one and a half sheets with horizontal joint may be neater. I dont want something that will give me a mess of drone cells in the middle of frames. The partial sheet of foundation method will put the drone where I want it.
    Frank

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JConnolly View Post
    Trish said her frames were 12-1/2″ high. So that was where I was wondering, because the jumbo is 11-1/4″, while according to pp36 and the drawing on pp38 of Dadant's book, he used 11-5/8″ frames....
    I don't know if anyone/anywhere uses the original Dadant spec anymore or cares about it.

    I also don't remember why the current Dadant spec is ~12" (300mm).

    But for sure, the 1918 convention of the beekeepers in Kiev, Ukraine defined four standard frame sizes for every one to use (in Ukraine/Russia/the vicinity at least, I guess).
    One of the four standards was the standard Dadant-Blatt frame spec which is force now still - 435x300mm (~17"x12").

    So maybe the 1918 ruling still IS the actual reason for the sizing (once set and in use - hard to change/undo).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    11 and 1/4" frame and 11 and 5/8" for the box would be standard. If I were going to use them stacked I would make the boxes a bit deeper to allow for shrinkage unless the lumber is bone dry.

    Propolis Ltd. in Canada has frames and wired wax foundation available but sit down when you ask the price. They may bring them in from Swienty (sp.?)
    Frank

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Dadant's original spec was 12-1/4 high for the 11-5/8" frame. Good luck finding a board to make that now. Advantech? Even making the more standard jumbo 11-5/8 box for the 11-1/4 frame is going to be hard to make from a single piece unless you use Advantech or other sheet good. You don't have to worry about shrinkage with Advantech, just the weight, but if you have just the single fixed brood chamber then it probably doesn't matter.
    Zone 6B

  18. #37
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    Jun 2016
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    I use 2 mediums glued together as the brood chamber. The frames are 12 3/4" side bars. They fit in the two mediums with the same clearance as a deep frame would fit into a Langstroth deep - so about 1/8 inch from the bottom, and from the top of the box, so that somehow we mostly get 3/8" between the frames in the boxes. I figured that was pretty close to 11 3/4" frames - and Dadant used 12, I'm only using 10.

    The frames are custom - courtesy of Weller Bee Supply in OH. We cut foundation on a table saw, so it will fit sideways into the Dadant sized frame. Fitting foundation the "right" way would have meant wiring it in or screwing it on the sides - we didn't go that route. There's no slots on the sides to hold the foundation in place, so 2 pieces would be fussy to fit lengthwise. Since we turn the foundation sideways, we have to router the "sides" - which become the tops of the foundation, so it will fit into the top and bottom frame slots intended for foundation.

    We all eventually settle on what works for us. I'd like more people to consider alternatives to the double deeps, because there are so many ways to enjoy beekeeping (or make it work for us). I want honey, for sure, and I want winter survival, and compatibility with (most) of the off-the-shelf gear... I really like that I only have 10 frames to go through to understand the brood nest, if things need a deep inspection. And no lifting a deep, or taking out half the frames so I can lift it!

    What's been most interesting is seeing the different ways the bees occupy the spaces - double deep vs Dadant. I help a buddy with 12 double deeps, so I get a frequent opportunity to see how those hives are "working". The bees use the Dadant/Jumbo hive a bit differently come fall - they choose one side, rather than being centered. The Langs seem to uniformly choose the bottom box, but centered. Pretty unexpected. One day, if I get a phone that can load new apps, and a FLIR, and probably win the lottery, I will take some pics with infrared for the double deeps and the Dadant deeps and see what there is to see... lots to explore with bees!!!

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by trishbookworm View Post
    What's been most interesting is seeing the different ways the bees occupy the spaces - double deep vs Dadant. I help a buddy with 12 double deeps, so I get a frequent opportunity to see how those hives are "working". The bees use the Dadant/Jumbo hive a bit differently come fall - they choose one side, rather than being centered. The Langs seem to uniformly choose the bottom box, but centered. Pretty unexpected.
    Trish:

    While I haven't anything meaningful to add to the discussion, I have enjoyed reading this thread and considering the good points many have made. Thanks for posing the question.

    Related to your point of clustering off-center, I was surprised recently to read our state apiarist recommend that beekeepers in Kentucky should monitor their clusters and rotate their boxes 180 degrees during a warm-spell sometime midway through the overwintering period if it is observed that the cluster has offset to the sunny side of the box:

    "A typical winter cluster will “jog in place” from November to mid-February, depending on weather. Monitor the cluster’s “movement” inside the hive and rotate the hive itself if the sun strikes one side of the hive more than the other. This is so the winter cluster will not become “trapped” against one wall of the hive, separating it from the honey stores. I like to have a full frame of honey/pollen on the walls all during winter."

  20. #39
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    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    One huge gotcha with Dadant depth frames is that most extractors available today can't handle them. I happen to have a 50+ year old Kelly 4 frame tangential extractor that was built to extract Dadant frames. I don't usually extract the deeps, but now and then I need to clean out the frames to use in the brood nest. If you are interested in using Dadant depth frames, you may have to order an extractor from Swienty that will handle them.

    A Dadant frame fully drawn and filled with honey can weigh between 8.5 and 12 pounds depending on how thick the comb is built. Since I use 14 frames in a box (32 mm end bars), most of my combs weigh about 9 pounds or a tad more. Eleven frames full of honey is about 100 pounds which compares very favorably with a double deep leaving the remaining 3 Dadant frames for bee cluster space. I don't need 100 pounds of honey for winter in the climate of North Alabama so normally reduce each colony to 6 or 7 full frames for winter.

    The volume of two Lansgstroth deep 10 frame boxes is about 20% larger than the volume of a single square Dadant. (4700 vs 3900 sq inches in round figures) The square Dadant is actually an ideal size for wintering in my climate where I used a Langstroth deep and a shallow as a standard overwinter configuration for over 40 years.

    Cost for a Square Dadant hive including frames, foundation, box, top, and bottom runs me about $80 with a caveat that I have to make my own frames. This is not an issue since I made my own frames for Langstroth boxes in the past. A double deep Langstroth hive with frames, foundation, boxes, top, and bottom will run about $100. A comparable Langstroth medium 8 frame setup with 4 boxes will cost about $120. I can definitely see a price advantage for the Dadant boxes.

    There are other factors to consider. With 4 medium 8 frame boxes, there are 8 outside combs which the queen will rarely lay in so off the bat, you just lost 1/4 of the total comb capacity for egg laying. With 2 Langstroth deeps, 4 combs are lost from being on the outside of the cluster. With the Dadant Square Deep, only 2 combs are lost, granted that they are bigger combs, they are roughly the equivalent of 1.25 Langstroth deep frames. Now consider another factor. Queens don't like to lay in corners which means most corners wind up as wasted space. With 4 medium 8 frame boxes, you lose 8 outside combs plus you lose 96 corners on the remaining 24 frames. With two Langstroth deeps, 4 outside combs plus 64 corners are lost. With 1 Dadant square deep, 2 outside combs and 48 corners are lost. Factoring in the end combs and corners, the Square Dadant (1600 square inches) has more actual laying space than a double 10 frame Langstroth (1570 square inches) and is just 50 square inches less than 4 medium 10 frame Langstroth (1650 square inches) boxes.

    Add it up any way you want, the square Dadant has some advantages. The primary disadvantage is that it is heavy when full of honey. Since I rarely move brood boxes, this is not an issue for me. My back is also still healthy enough to move them if and when needed.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    That makes a lot more sense Trish. 12-3/4" is the logical size for a double medium stack with deep frames. I thought about trying that at one time, I can make my own frames but since two 8 frame deeps is working out really well for me I haven't. With just 16 frames inspection goes fast and it is plenty of space. It does take some management, but all of my colonies are starting winter with the cluster in the bottom east half and 70-ish lbs of honey.

    I'm curious about changing the foundation orientation. Regular foundation orients the hexagon ⬢ but it you turn the foundation then the hexagon is oriented ⬣, which is how your picture shows they drew it. I have no idea if the bees care, but they normally build ⬢ in natural comb. Have you noticed any difference? Since bees overlap cells for strength the opposing cell walls either make a Y or a ⅄ shape at the bottom of a cell depending on what side you viewed the comb from. Some beekeepers who know a great deal (Lusby for example) observed that in natural hives the order was always Y ⅄ on one side of the hive and ⅄ Y on the other side. The bees reversed the comb pattern depending on which side of the hive it was on, and that maybe that aided the girls in knowing where in the hive they were at. Or it could mean absolutely nothing because bees build out from a center comb which means it just naturally ends up that way by mirroring the center comb (which I think is most likely for no good scientific reason other than that it is the simplest reason). With foundation rotated 90 the pattern becomes -<. The whole thing is probably moot with plastic foundation.
    Zone 6B

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