Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!! - Page 3
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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    Salt Lake City, UT
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    1,350

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Fusion_Power, as the jumbo frame is 27% larger than the Langstroth-deep and you are running 7 frames in the winter then that is essentially the same as a single brood chamber Lang-deep 10 frame (7 x 1.27 = 9). How do you think an 8 frame single brood chamber Jumbo would perform?
    Zone 6B

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  3. #42

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    How is your back?

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Dallas, texas
    Posts
    12

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    I use double deeps in order to brood up fast and large as possible. I can't get Queens early enough to make splits so I try and manage through adding space and re-balancing hives by robin hooding capped brood. Trying to raise my own queens in Texas is risky as on occasions I ended up with "hot" hives that disrupt the entire apiary. One hive I had to use a Snelgrove board and a third deep to fight off swarming. We have early honey flow and I better be ready to catch it or I end up with no honey and lots of small hives that I end up having to feed all late summer long. Also adding a medium on top of single brood box ends up with the queen moving up and then I get to deep and 2 mediums. Mix and match,what goes where and when?

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,070

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    8 frames would be fine for winter in your climate but spring buildup would require some adaptations such as giving a couple of supers above an excluder to keep the queen in the deep frames while providing space for excess bees to cluster. It would not be a problem otherwise. I would not use 8 frames with Italians, but with Buckfast or with Carniolans, it would work.

    I use 32 mm frames which would allow 9 frames in an 8 frame box. I marginally recommend the 32 mm frames with a caveat that aggressive spring management is needed to prevent swarming.

    I will extend this a bit by saying that the square Dadant hive configuration is used because it facilitates several management options that are not available with rectangular equipment. It is also a size that conveniently handles spring buildup without having to add space until honey supers are needed. My spring management is two things, making sure the bees have enough stores to get through to the flow and making splits from the strongest colonies to prevent swarming. The splits often make enough honey to have a bit of surplus.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
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    3,880

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    One huge gotcha with Dadant depth frames is that most extractors available today can't handle them. ....

    Add it up any way you want, the square Dadant has some advantages. The primary disadvantage is that it is heavy when full of honey. Since I rarely move brood boxes, this is not an issue for me. My back is also still healthy enough to move them if and when needed.
    A couple of considerations:
    - a pair of Lang med frames (strapped together) about equal to a Dadant frame - can unstrap/extract if really need to (of course, extra wood eats into the comb space)
    20190815_182059.jpg
    - 8-10 frame boxes are easier to get by reuse and are lighter (but not square anymore)
    - Dadant long hives (14-16-20-24-...) are actually even better than the square Dadants (if not mobile);
    -- you CAN run them as-if square OR you grow sideways as much as the equipment allows; many older veterans do nothing by long Dadants - single level
    - while at it - strap a Lang medium to the Dadant frame and make an extra deep frame and go all the way deep (of cause, need a deep box).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Albany NY
    Posts
    272

    Default

    Rooky question Greg: no ears on frames? How do you hang them?

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Clinton WA,USA
    Posts
    2,770

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Pretty much only Use Deeps.

    <The following is for English, for practical flip it to vision the stack>
    2 deeps brood box.
    Then first super is deep,
    second super is deep,
    3rd is deep or medium.


    But, usually I pull before the 3rd deep. Now cut comb is medium.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    3,880

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amibusiness View Post
    Rooky question Greg: no ears on frames? How do you hang them?
    Just screw them in (either short way or long way).
    Short way is my default; but thinking to try out the long way (compatible to standard Lang/Dadant).
    Look at the pic again - several of them laying on the grass (the short way bars; made from a dismantled crib wife handed me down).
    The top bars are separate part in my program.
    StrappedFramesVertical_Small.jpg
    I even run just blank top bars/open frames.
    It all works. Open frame in use:
    DSCN2476.jpg
    Anymore I also just stand the frames on the floor if have to (two Lang mediums tired; the ears kept as-is; they stand on the ears just fine).
    Mix & match and move along.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #49

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    I have had three different set-ups in my 42 year beekeeping journey.

    I started with douple deeps. Nothing wrong with that system, besides that I had heavily insulated wooden boxes which weighed a ton.

    Then I read Brother Adams book "Meine Betriebsweise" and got my first Buckfast queens from Sweden. Of course I had to convert my system to 12 frame Jumbo, just like Adams system. Shallow honey boxes. The first maybe 7 years went very well. Then I started to realize I had made a huge mistake.
    - the 12 frame Jumbo is too heavy to carry when full, so there is no way you can use 2 full size 12 Jumbos on a colony, to enable frame circulation (one with darker frames filled with honey, other with lighter frames downstairs for the queen)
    - when using only 1 full size Jumbo per hive, the wide spread brood diseases in Finland became the problem. In practice it is very difficult to maintain a circulation system in a "1 full size Jumbo/ hive" -system. And even when you find one: then you had to carry full size Jumbo boxes containing frames taken from * different hives when doing the circulation (dark frames with honey taken away from the sides of the box, to give room for foundation in the broodnest). This could be solved by carrying just 6 frames in a box, and taking the risk of dropping frames every now and then, besides the Jumbo frames are not easy to extract.

    The third system was a modification of the second: I just dumped the Jumbo boxes and started to keep bees with the shallow honey boxes in brood nest too. Works well and saves my back.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 10-31-2019 at 10:13 PM. Reason: clarification *

  11. #50
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    ..... so there is no way you can use 2 full size 12 Jumbos on a colony, to enable frame circulation (one with darker frames filled with honey, other with lighter frames downstairs for the queen)
    - when using only 1 full size Jumbo per hive, the wide spread brood diseases in Finland became the problem. In practice it is very difficult to maintain a circulation system in a "1 full size Jumbo/ hive" .......
    And these issues are trivially solved when you just rung long hives with the entrance at one end (warm way or the corner entrance).
    You simple gradually move the frames away from the entrance.
    New frames/bars always inserted by the entrance.
    The old dark frames end up in the back of the hive (and harvested/recycled - simply crash-end-strained).
    Once you enter the 12-frame Jumbo box business - these are so heavy, makes not much sense to not just run the 20/24-frame long hives single-level (still can super too).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #51

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    And these issues are trivially solved when you just rung long hives with the entrance at one end (warm way or the corner entrance).
    I wanted to stick with a system someone else uses, to maintain some retail value in my equipment.

  13. #52
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    I wanted to stick with a system someone else uses, to maintain some retail value in my equipment.
    Sure; a good reason.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #53
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
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    6,953

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    >there is no way you can use 2 full size 12 Jumbos on a colony, to enable frame circulation (one with darker frames filled with honey, other with lighter frames downstairs for the queen)
    Isn't it the opposite? Brood combs are dark, honey frames are light? I use standard medium honey supers on my jumbos, the combs are light, the jumbo brood frames are dark. Brother Adam had a system of rotating out four brood combs a year.

    >I wanted to stick with a system someone else uses, to maintain some retail value in my equipment.
    After visiting Brother Adam in 1978, I made 12 matching hives. Some of that is rotten and long gone and the rest so old it has little retail value. The 1979 bottom board on hive #1 is so rotten it barely supports the hive, and the BB on # 6 has been replaced with a division screen, imitating a SBB. The brood chamber on #1 an original from 1979, the #6 BC is a newer plywood replacement. All the 1979 inner and telescoping covers are history. Surprising the brood chambers outlasted them. Yes, and little value being non standard equipment, most of mine is standard ten and eight frame. And as you can see from those orange boxes, a lot fresh and new.
    They got harvested last week and #6 had five plus full supers, 250+ ponds crop. For many reasons the other 12 frame hives did poorly this year; mites, old queens, old brood combs, old beekeeper.

    Last edited by odfrank; 11-01-2019 at 10:33 AM.
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  15. #54

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Isn't it the opposite? Brood combs are dark, honey frames are light? I use standard medium honey supers on my jumbos, the combs are light, the jumbo brood frames are dark. Brother Adam had a system of rotating out four brood combs a year.
    Circulation Brother Adam style was THE thing I did not manage to do.

    I figured it could be done with queen excluder and Demaree type of system where OLD DARK COMBs are placed on top of the excluder. They get filled with honey. Queen gets new combs (foundation) in the bottom. Circulation problem solved.

    BUT. The box above excluder needs to be carried to the extracting room, and it is WAY too heavy.

  16. #55
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    6,953

    Default

    I think Brother Adam melted down those old black combs. Many beekeepers do not use black brood comb for honey production.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Isn't it the opposite? Brood combs are dark, honey frames are light? I use standard medium honey supers on my jumbos, the combs are light, the jumbo brood frames are dark. Brother Adam had a system of rotating out four brood combs a year.
    Circulation Brother Adam style was THE thing I did not manage to do.

    I figured it could be done with queen excluder and Demaree type of system where OLD DARK COMBs are placed on top of the excluder. They get filled with honey. Queen gets new combs (foundation) in the bottom. Circulation problem solved.

    BUT. The box above excluder needs to be carried to the extracting room, and it is WAY too heavy.
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  17. #56

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    I think Brother Adam melted down those old black combs. Many beekeepers do not use black brood comb for honey production.
    Exactly.
    I would have melted them(frames in the upper Jumbo) after extracting.



    The use of two Jumbos in unpractical.

    The Brother Adam style system for circulation did not work (for me).

    Dead end. Had to change system.

  18. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Lassen, California, USA
    Posts
    688

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    "All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites."

    Wow odfrank, didn't know you were that old! Thanks for all your interesting posts, I've learned a lot from you, and others here, during my meager 5 years of bee keeping
    Some days it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.

  19. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogback Honey View Post
    ... I've learned a lot from you, and others here, during my meager 5 years of bee keeping
    I concur- thank you for all your experienced beekeepers who are willing to put up with us neophytes.

  20. #59
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    6,953

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Thank you. I am not that old, only a youthful 68. I first worked bees in 1968, had my own hives in 1970 or '71, and up to 60 hives by the end of the '70s.

    This movie shows my then new Brother Adam hives at the 5-6:00+ minute mark.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AAkO_jkGyQ&t=101s




    Quote Originally Posted by Hogback Honey View Post
    "All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites."

    Wow odfrank, didn't know you were that old! Thanks for all your interesting posts, I've learned a lot from you, and others here, during my meager 5 years of bee keeping
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  21. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    woodland, wa usa
    Posts
    73

    Default Re: Down with Double Deeps! Fess up, you alternative hive-style followers!!!!

    Langstroth hives is a standard system, and yes, I do the double deeps with them even though I built the bulk of my early hives, including frames. Had no reason to change a system my mentor used for the amount of decades I am now just barely maybe coming up on, which works extremely well and has for a century and a half!
    When one veers away from any standard beekeeping system and either makes their own hive equipment/parts or has them custom made by someone, there is no limit to the possibles.
    But I reiterate, the Langstroth system has sustained the test of [much] time!
    And the/a major reason for the various bodies is the ability to manage the weight of any of them, one at a time.

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