MAQS failure
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: MAQS failure

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Northern Colorado, USA
    Posts
    586

    Default MAQS failure

    I had MAQS fail in atleast one of my hives this fall. I want to see if anyone else has idea's or if my logic sounds right

    I have only done sugar rolls on my big hive in the last month, I am assuming that all 4 of my hives are similar and they are all getting treated at about the same time.

    • on july 12, did sugar roll and found 0 mites
    • on august 16 did sugar roll and found 5 mites in about 1/3 cup of bees
    • on September 22 added 1 MAQS strip between boxes 2 and 3
    • on September 29 I did a sugar roll and found 9 mites in about 1/3 cup of bees
    • on October 8th moved top feeder from another hive onto this hive because the other hive stopped taking syrup, the feeder was half full and the other had 2+ mediums of capped stores
    • on October 10-11 had a cold front come thru and temperatures dropped from 70's during the day on the 9th to 15ish during the night of the 11on October 6 added 2 MAQS strips, one between boxes 2 and 3, and one between boxes 3 and 4
    • on October 13 did a sugar roll and found 14 mites in about 1/3 cup of bees
    • on October 13, after thinking some more decided to put 2 more MAQS on the hive between boxes 4 and 5. I did not want to open up the hive completely again and disturb them a lot again.


    Right now this hive is sitting at 5 boxes, a deep on the bottom and 4 mediums on top of that. The bottom 2 boxes are mostly empty because the brood nest was in those boxes all summer, the hive was doing well and did not fill them. The 3rd box is completely filled with capped stores. The 4th and 5th boxes are about half filled with capped stores, but it is mostly half filled frames so I can not really combine these boxes into 1 and combine the stores very well.

    I had a quilt box on this hive all summer and thru the entire treatment with MAQS until October 8th, when I put a top feeder (mann lake) between box 5 and the quilt box. I am thinking that the quilt box on top allowed to much air flow and the formic acid fumes were not strong enough to kill the mites. I am going to check the hive again this weekend and probably start OAV, since the MAQS didn't work. It is way later in the season then I wanted to be dealing with high mite loads.

    A few other notes:
    • The MAQS expired in august, but I figured they were still fine in September.
    • I wanted to treat earlier, but the weather has been so warm there was not a good stretch where it looked like it was going to stay below 85 for a few days until mid September.
    • This hive (and all others) survived the cold snap, but this one is not looking as strong as I would like.
    • My other 3 hives look better, but I need to check the mite counts in them. One got OAV in august because it was high, and the other 2 are new splits. All 4 hives got MAQS treatments.
    • There is white junk on the inside of the top cover above the quilt box that was not there before. I put a chunk of zinc plated steel on the inside of the top cover with the logic that any condensation on the cover will run to the front and drip off there instead of back into the middle of the quilt box. The top cover is tilted from back to front a bit.



    Does the assumption that treating with MAQS with a quilt box on top and a large hive caused the MAQS to fail sound right? Does anyone else have any other idea's what is going on with this hive?

    edit to change formating

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Butler Co, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    449

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Most likely a combination of the quilt, and the expiration. Maqs are very particular to how they are stored as well as date. Most likely was iffy whether it'd been strong enough in a closed up hive. You didn't mention if you had a screen bottom or not, but if so, that wouldn't have helped matters any either.
    Hindsight is 20/10, not 20/20...
    After the fact, I always know what didn't work.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by elmer_fud View Post
    on September 22 added 1 MAQS strip between boxes 2 and 3
    on September 29 I did a sugar roll and found 9 mites in about 1/3 cup of bees
    well we have had other people complaining about MAQS not working, but in all cases they tested right during or right after they put the strips on or as they removed them.

    from the nod web site
    MAQS works by penetrating the brood cap to kill mites where they reproduce. The majority of mites (80%) in a hive are found under the brood caps feeding on the developing bees. After a treatment, phoretic mites (mites found on adult bees) have dropped, however mites killed under the brood caps will drop as baby bees emerge from their cells. To get a more accurate mite count, wait a full brood cycle, or 16+ days after treatment.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  5. #4
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,839

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    I read that you placed strips between boxes down in the stack rather than always on top. Formic fumes are much heavier than air so perhaps create a low concentration area at colony top.

    One strip in a 4 or 5 body colony is a bit on the light side for dose perhaps but temperature concerns makes for a balancing act. ~ Temperature concerns can lead to deferred treatment and this is the enemy of getting ahead of the mite population rising curve.

    Would there be surrounding bees with a high mite load?

    Concern with Maqs usually leans more to hard on bees rather than to lack of effectiveness.
    Frank

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    1,740

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    There was recently a thread on B L about the failure of MAQS to take down the mite load on some hives.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    There was recently a thread on B L about the failure of MAQS to take down the mite load on some hives.
    yes but if you went back and looked at the person that started the thread, they have had the same failure every 3 or 4 years, and they don't test for mites

    and if you look at the second person that said it failed, they also tested right after they pulled the pads. I went and looked at Randy O. tests of MAQS and the ones I looked at he did his tests at 30 days and 60 days after treatment.
    Last edited by wildbranch2007; 10-15-2019 at 07:49 AM.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    I'll give you an example of how MAQS can look like they failed when they really worked. A friend of mine doesn't treat for mites in the spring, we requeend a couple of his hives in the spring, he bought a couple of nucs from me and I gave him a couple of swarms from my hives(all were treated with apivar in the spring) he treated with MAQ pro's all the hives at the same time. When we were pulling his honey in Sept after he had treated, I looked at some of his drones and they had DWV. I gave him my pro vap 120 and said put stickies in all of the hives and treat them and count. He is on his final treatment, the nucs and swarms had minimal amount of mites, the ones that were not treated in the spring, were raining mites. The Pro used came from the same bucket, same amount used, hives were pretty much equal in size, the Pro's didn't fail, his mite counts were really high to start on those hives they killed mites, just to many mites.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Northern Colorado, USA
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post

    "After a treatment, phoretic mites (mites found on adult bees) have dropped, however mites killed under the brood caps will drop as baby bees emerge from their cells. To get a more accurate mite count, wait a full brood cycle, or 16+ days after treatment. "

    I wish this was the case but I know it is not. When I did a sugar roll on October 13 I dissolved the sugar in water then poured it thru a paper towel to make it easier to count. Several of the mites were still moving around on the paper towel.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Northern Colorado, USA
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I read that you placed strips between boxes down in the stack rather than always on top. Formic fumes are much heavier than air so perhaps create a low concentration area at colony top.
    I placed the strips across the top of the bars with the long orientation of the strip perpendicular to the bars. I placed them in/above the brood chamber for all except for the last treatment on October 13


    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Would there be surrounding bees with a high mite load?
    Maybe, I know one of my neighbors 2 doors down had a hive last year and did not treat. The couple at that house got a divorce this year, and I have no clue if they still have bees. I don't talk to them much so I dont know what they are/are not doing. My other thought on this is if this hive was robbing another one they would probably be gaining weight instead of loosing weight. This hive lost about 5 lbs of weight between sep 23 and oct 7. I have not grabbed the data off the logger since October 7th so I do not know what they are doing right now.
    Last edited by elmer_fud; 10-15-2019 at 10:40 PM. Reason: spelling

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Northern Colorado, USA
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Bdfarmer555 View Post
    . You didn't mention if you had a screen bottom or not,
    I have solid bottom boards on all of my hives. The entrance was fully opened with a robber screen in front of it.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Wimer, Oregon
    Posts
    116

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    did you add extra ventilation like a top vent as the direction say to do?
    air needs to circulate through the hive when maqs or formic pro are used.
    DavidZ

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by elmer_fud View Post
    I wish this was the case but I know it is not. When I did a sugar roll on October 13 I dissolved the sugar in water then poured it thru a paper towel to make it easier to count. Several of the mites were still moving around on the paper towel.
    the formic kills the male mites under the capping's not the females, so they don't get mated.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    John Day River, OR
    Posts
    277

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Doesn't sound like product failure to me at all. Sounds like sky high mite loads and late, sub-optimal treatment and not following label instructions.
    I don't want to come across as condescending. It takes a lot of mistakes to learn and I applaud you for doing regular mite counts, but hear me out.

    You had high mite loads in august, but waited over a month before treating, at which point you used only a half dose. The label states very clearly if you are using one strip, to follow it with another strip 7-10 days later. Instead, you did a mite count and found a higher mite load, then waited another 2 weeks before actually doing the treatment that you probably should have done in august.

    Mite Away, in my experience, is really good at killing mites, but nothing works with high mite loads too late in the season. I have definetly seen a huge range in NOD's product. Fresh pads are soft but dry, closer to expiration they get really goopy and difficult to handle. Seems like it still works though. Formic pro seems to be much more consistent. Regardless, I think the timing is way more critical. This is speculation, but I an earlier treatment probably would have kept your mite loads at tolerable levels, AND given you time to do a follow up in case it really didn't work.

    Now please go read "Fat Bees" (again if you already have) and really think about the timing of your treatment.
    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Humboldt Co., California
    Posts
    557

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    I tend to agree with Apricot....the narrative provided by Elmer seems to indicate really late control of mites as well as non-label/direction application regimens.

    Wildbranch....I have never heard that FA only kills the male mite....if so, why are there so many dead mites ( all females) on the bottom boards after a treatment?

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by orthoman View Post
    I tend to agree with Apricot....the narrative provided by Elmer seems to indicate really late control of mites as well as non-label/direction application regimens.

    Wildbranch....I have never heard that FA only kills the male mite....if so, why are there so many dead mites ( all females) on the bottom boards after a treatment?
    can't remember where I read it, if I find it I will post it, but delivering honey for the next few days.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    one quick search found this in Randy O's site.

    Figure 11. The treatment killed most of the immature mites and male mites, and about 70% of the hardened brown mites (50 -100%, although we didn’t record meticulous data). In one count, 11 of 11 mites found were dead.

    One observation of note is that the percentage of mites killed in drone brood was noticeably lower than that in the worker brood, as noted by both vanEngelsdorp, and by Amrine when the drone brood was in older combs, and confirmed (pers comm) by David Vanderdussen, the developer of MAQS.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Northern Colorado, USA
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    This is the daily high for the airport that is close to me. It was not consistently below 85 until mid September. This year the entire season (except first snow/hard frost) has been offset about 3 weeks. The tree blooms, the fall colors, the farm crops, the temperatures have all been several weeks behind normal.

    Attachment 51927

    Attachment 51929

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Northern Colorado, USA
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by ApricotApiaries View Post
    Doesn't sound like product failure to me at all. Sounds like sky high mite loads and late, sub-optimal treatment and not following label instructions.
    I don't want to come across as condescending. It takes a lot of mistakes to learn and I applaud you for doing regular mite counts, but hear me out.

    You had high mite loads in august, but waited over a month before treating, at which point you used only a half dose. The label states very clearly if you are using one strip, to follow it with another strip 7-10 days later. Instead, you did a mite count and found a higher mite load, then waited another 2 weeks before actually doing the treatment that you probably should have done in august.

    Mite Away, in my experience, is really good at killing mites, but nothing works with high mite loads too late in the season. I have definetly seen a huge range in NOD's product. Fresh pads are soft but dry, closer to expiration they get really goopy and difficult to handle. Seems like it still works though. Formic pro seems to be much more consistent. Regardless, I think the timing is way more critical. This is speculation, but I an earlier treatment probably would have kept your mite loads at tolerable levels, AND given you time to do a follow up in case it really didn't work.

    Now please go read "Fat Bees" (again if you already have) and really think about the timing of your treatment.
    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/
    uggg, somewhere I lost a date in the first post. I did one strip on september 22, 2 on October 6, and 2 on october 13.

    I agree that I did not follow the instruction correctly by placing 2 strips in the hive on October 6th, but it did not look like one strip was working right since the might load still seemed really high. After still finding a bunch of mites on the 13th I decided it was not really working right so I should throw another 2 strips in there and hope for the best. On the 13th and when I started this post I was thinking that I had too much air flow thru the hive, and having the feeder on top of the hive should reduce most of the air flow and increase the acid fume concentration.

    Like I said, I wanted to treat earlier, but the temperatures were consistently to high every 3-5 days until mid september. The only days that I can get in my hives during the day on a regular basis are friday, saturday, and sunday due to work, so it makes it harder to treat with OAV on a 4 or 5 day cycle.

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    John Day River, OR
    Posts
    277

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Quote Originally Posted by elmer_fud View Post
    uggg, somewhere I lost a date in the first post. I did one strip on september 22, 2 on October 6, and 2 on october 13.

    I agree that I did not follow the instruction correctly by placing 2 strips in the hive on October 6th, but it did not look like one strip was working right since the might load still seemed really high. After still finding a bunch of mites on the 13th I decided it was not really working right so I should throw another 2 strips in there and hope for the best. On the 13th and when I started this post I was thinking that I had too much air flow thru the hive, and having the feeder on top of the hive should reduce most of the air flow and increase the acid fume concentration.

    Like I said, I wanted to treat earlier, but the temperatures were consistently to high every 3-5 days until mid september. The only days that I can get in my hives during the day on a regular basis are friday, saturday, and sunday due to work, so it makes it harder to treat with OAV on a 4 or 5 day cycle.
    That missing date makes things a little different. If you can stuff that many strips in a hive and not have significant bee losses, or a queen lost, and still have high mites, there is a good chance you have a product issue. What was the consistency of the strips when you put it in? Also, how were you storing them or did they come straight from the warehouse? You can freeze MAQS which prolongs expiration a little bit.

    Still, even with the missing date, and better understanding your temps, there are other issues to consider. I think the bigger issue is waiting so long from when you first noticed climbing mite loads and when you actually started treating. I understand the high temps. That said, I am in eastern oregon, a climate more similar to boise than portland. Hot, dry, summer. Cold winter. Fall can last 2 weeks or 3 months. We have high temps every summer through most of september. I have used MAQS every year in august, always pushing the upper limits. I figure if I can get it on in the low 90's its usually ok. Above 95, we get higher than normal bee and queen mortality, but never catastrophic. I just make sure to have queens on hand when I check back. It is a risk I am willing to take. My feeling is it is more important to get mite loads down in a timely manner.

    Lastly. Try to remember, there are other options than MAQS and OAV. Thymol works pretty well in the mid 90's, though also should not be used over 95. Likewise, it takes several applications 2 if you are using apiguard, 3 for api life var. Apivar (amitraz) does not have a temp limit. I WILL stand by my previous statement that AUGUST is a critical month to get mite loads under control.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Humboldt Co., California
    Posts
    557

    Default Re: MAQS failure

    Again, pretty much agree with Apricots assessment. I tend to look at treatments as killing by either contact or fumigation. The fumigants have temperature range limitations that need to be followed. If temps are a problem, then look to contact products.

    There are pros and cons to all treatments.....gives and takes to each.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •