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Thread: Global Warming

  1. #201
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    And rust is still iron.
    Rust is not iron.
    Rust is Fe2O3, primarily. Some FeO.
    So you know.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #202
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Saw a piece on NBC; Orders of new jumbo jets to support next day delivery. Really? You can't think that far ahead to wait a week for a truck and train? Do not know the CO2 math but my gut says flying burns more fuel.

    My gut also says it is many believers clicking next day delivery. Especially free.
    Last edited by Saltybee; 11-23-2019 at 04:05 PM. Reason: Truck for trunk
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  4. #203
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    My gut also says it is many believers clicking next day delivery. Especially free.
    My gut agrees with you on this point. Many so called believers only pay lip service to the idea. When it comes to being inconvenienced, well, that is a different story. That is why I commend those that walk the walk, even if I do not agree with them.
    Pound for pound, I believe that rail is the most fuel efficient of all modes of transportation for frieght. Flying on the other hand is more efficient per passanger mile, especially when compared to automobiles with only the driver on board.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  5. #204
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    In my building of 10 floors there are roughly 1000 employees.
    Let us assume we have 50% of the employees who can be classified as the "believers" - 500 people (if surveyed, I am sure the number will be much higher).
    If true, the number of people using some sustainable transportation means should be approaching 500.

    Well, let me tell you - it is about 50-100 of us in this building who bike and walk to the office (at least, walk the last mile like I do - I do it in any weather for my baseline workout AND save $$$ on parking).
    The rest are driving right onto the parking garage DESPITE the parking under the building is very expensive.

    So, indeed, the dis-balance of what people are saying and what they are actually doing is stark.
    I believe only punitive taxation is a way out this status (AND some will still pay it) - people are lazy and spoiled to extreme, and badly out of shape.

    PS: yes - some people must drive in all the way for a # of reasons; I did allow for those.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #205
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    In my building of 10 floors there are roughly 1000 employees.
    Let us assume we have 50% of the employees who can be classified as the "believers" - 500 people (if surveyed, I am sure the number will be much higher).
    If true, the number of people using some sustainable transportation means should be approaching 500.

    Well, let me tell you - it is about 50-100 of us in this building who bike and walk to the office (at least, walk the last mile like I do - I do it in any weather for my baseline workout AND save $$$ on parking).
    The rest are driving right onto the parking garage DESPITE the parking under the building is very expensive.

    So, indeed, the dis-balance of what people are saying and what they are actually doing is stark.
    I believe only punitive taxation is a way out this status (AND some will still pay it) - people are lazy and spoiled to extreme, and badly out of shape.

    PS: yes - some people must drive in all the way for a # of reasons; I did allow for those.
    Interesting observation Greg. So Maybe a better approach is to talk up health and savings, to try to create behavior change. I am not sure the man made climate change Hoax is working on very many people. I have never had to pay for parking to go to work, but that would be also some motivation to car pool. I now work from home thru the Net, so no commute time to work no fuel and no parking, no dry cleaning, No Lunch as well, was also is a big spend for the week for me and others. At first I did not like the lack of face to face with co-workers, but soon found ways around it, now would have a hard time going back.
    GG

  7. #206
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Interesting observation Greg. So Maybe a better approach is to talk up health and savings, to try to create behavior change. I am not sure the man made climate change Hoax is working on very many people. I have never had to pay for parking to go to work, but that would be also some motivation to car pool. I now work from home thru the Net, so no commute time to work no fuel and no parking, no dry cleaning, No Lunch as well, was also is a big spend for the week for me and others. At first I did not like the lack of face to face with co-workers, but soon found ways around it, now would have a hard time going back.
    GG
    I remote in occasionally (just like now), but actually prefer to be on-site.
    Just get distracted less when on-site.

    But, when they jacked up the parking last time (about 12 years ago and was exceeding 1K annually then; surely higher now - I don't care to check) I thought - why am I paying this?
    Am I stupid?
    This is enough money to pay for ALL my kids camps and activities AND still there will be $$ left.
    No, I am not THAT stupid.

    Clearly, either people around my not smart enough OR they are so spoiled that don't care to throw away ~$1.5-2K annually for the privilege to park under the building.
    There is many years of the waiting list too.
    I gave up my spot to most office-mates' flabbergasted reactions.

    Been walking 12 years non-stop; across the frozen lake in winter.
    I only thank the city for jacking up the parking fees.
    Good for them - good for me (I feel good I get to save $$$ while exercising) - if I remote 2-3 days in a row, I feel like crap - have to have my 2 mile mandatory walk every day WITH a moderately heavy backpack (about 10 pounds of paper in it, just for the weight). That is usual 10-12 miles per week that I don't drive by personal choice - my small contribution into the CO2 pollution reduction.

    Overall, most people are lazy and spoiled and they don't care much for anything that cuts into their static, comfortable sitting comfort (I don't care what they say - everyone knows the right things to say, and then do the opposite).
    Heck, our underprivileged don't even care to garden and grow tomatoes - supposedly to save them $ on their food bills.
    The community gardens here are half-empty (well, the produce gets stolen when in season - routinely - now, that is easy enough for them to do).
    The gardens are begging for the participants right next to the low-income housing project.
    Last edited by GregV; 11-25-2019 at 11:19 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #207
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Walking has mysterious affects. Maybe because it provides time to enjoy the air and think. I personally liked day-hikes and backpacking. Been living for a while and never saw a "Hoax" change the Arctic ice pack. I did see results from stopping the manufacturer of FREON and taxes to reduce / prevent acid rain.

    I know the solution to the car-parking problem as well as local food production. Remember the oil embargo? I do. Car-pooling with free parking became the norm plus little cars not big FAKE passenger trucks. Stupidest thing I ever saw, jacking the up truck bodies thus raising the C.G and needing a ladder to get in. ( Does anybody know where I can find a good, low work truck anymore?) Remember high food prices? I do - kept me skinny. I remember ice skating on Salt Pond (salt water) - no more!

    BTW, I currently like global warming, being old and selfish. It is nice in my old age. But - I miss the soft shell clams, lobsters have moved north. Keep farting, it is good for the environment and I cannot control it anyway.

  9. #208
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Local production of food would be a big benefit. Cut out all the stupidity of transporting our typical food items an average of a thousand miles. Local food production could provide a lot of low tech jobs. Too many of our youth have to leave to find the high tech and a lot of the middle of the ability curve people get deselected from the job market. There just are not a lot of jobs left for them and people do not cope well without satisfying employment.

    I like the way the Amish provide jobs for everyone in their communities. We dont have to go to that extreme but I think we need to look hard at technology that makes humans redundant. Cheap food and consumer goods that eliminate jobs are no bargain for society. We eventually bear the real costs from a lot of marginalized disengaged people.
    Frank

  10. #209
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    >...but I think we need to look hard at technology that makes humans redundant.

    The idea that machines would replace us has been around since machines were invented. It's now several centuries later and they still have not.

    >Local production of food would be a big benefit. Cut out all the stupidity of transporting our typical food items an average of a thousand miles.

    It's even worse. We raise chickens in Arkansas, transport them live to Chicago and butcher them. Then we ship them to Omaha to be made into pot pies or TV dinners, freeze those and ship them to California where they get eaten... so some of those food items get shipped thousandS of miles. It's not like you can't raise chickens in California (or anywhere).
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  11. #210
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    MB it sounded like you were suggesting machines have not made ALL people redundant as has been the concern for centuries. Did I read that right?
    It sounded to me like crofter was refering to machines that make SOME people redundant.
    Surely you must admit that automation has made certain jobs no longer require humans to complete them? I thought crofter was suggesting that society pays a price when we have a lot of people sitting around in frustration because there is no more meaningful work in their home area. Is this some liberal cospiracy theory or can we agree that if we remove meaningful activities from people's lives we will wind up with more and more frustrated people with all the depression and other costs associated therewith?

  12. #211
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Modern industrial automation done correctly, raises quality dramatically, increases production, reduces waste and errors, raises wages for the remaining employees, and returns for shareholders and principles.
    It has nothing to do with "global warming" other than reducing the waste stream and maybe energy costs.
    I'm all for it.
    As it applies to beekeeping, we have an EZY Loader and forklifts. THAT'S automation.
    We have ultrasonic proximity sensors on our bottling tanks to stop the pump from over filling.
    Pressure sensors on filters to limit pressure.
    Automated extractor run time / speed.
    My next automation project will be the automation of liquefying barrels of honey.
    I'm all for automation. LOVE IT!
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  13. #212
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    "raises wages for the remaining employees"
    Harry, what happens to the others? Yes automation is fantastic for the employer, not so much for the laid off....

  14. #213
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Workers have been losing their jobs to automation since the beginning of the industrial revolution. It’s the way free economies grow and prosper, raising the standard of living for society as a whole. Of course there is individual pain as jobs are lost in one segment while they are created in another. The solution, as always, is worker retraining to keep up with progress. As Harry stated, even in the lowly world of beekeeping we are able to do more with less manual labor. For those longing for the “good old days”, buy yourself a few acres of land, cut the cords and live off the grid if you choose, see if your quality of life improves.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #214
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    Yes, if only we had free economies.... Anyone remember too big to fail?
    I am not oposed to modernization as long as it is done conciously, "smartly," with the whole society in mind, not just the few who prosper. Think about it, if we did things justly there would be no need for gated communities.
    And automation does not mean higher quality, Harry. It means repeatability and cheap. If the humans involved want higher quality they can implement that as well buy it is not inherent in automation. I am an arborist. I see a lot of "arborists" using automatic pole saws (ie chainsaw on the end of a string trimmer). They can work faster and easier because they don't need to climb to the sight but their cuts are usually terrible which can weaken the tree. So THEIR quality of life is increased at the expense of the tree and often the client, who thought they were getting a good deal until they have to hire someone to come back and repair the damage if they catch it soon enough or remove the tree if it has gone too far....
    Automation also increases the quality of MY life because the waste and pollution is left near the manufacturer so the consumer does not have to deal with it. So this needs to be done "smatly" not so the owners make the most money but so the real costs are factored in and the responsibility is taken by those who benefit from it not the taxpayers / governments who are thereby forced to offer social wellfare for the inanimate companies or the privileged few who own them. You see? If we are able to see the bigger picture of our actions and take full responsibility for their effects then automation can be wonderful. And as for walking the walk? Yes I still drive and use chainsaws etc. (Just not a chainsaw on the end of a pole!)

  16. #215
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    >Surely you must admit that automation has made certain jobs no longer require humans to complete them?

    Since automation started there is the theoretical idea that we will all eventually be replaced by machines. It never happens. You can theoretically make the case, but in reality it never happens. My Grandfather was a fireman on the old steam engines. When they went to diesel he thought he would be out of a job so he learned to be an engineer. As it turns out, the engineer still needed an assistant but he got paid more as an engineer. I can see the theoretical idea, but I have yet to see it happen. We have been automating things pretty extensively since the 1700s.

    "You can present some data to an intellectual and an intellectual will say 'well, yes it works in practice but will it work in theory?' "--Bill Whittle
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  17. #216
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    I agree that it is doubtful that automation will make all humans redundant. However I believe crofters point was that some in society are disadvantaged by automation. And historically speaking retraining has not worked for all people who get laid off. As an idividual it is good for me If I can stay ahead of the curve maybe even retrain before I lose my job. As a society we need to stay ahead of the curve in taking care of all in the society. Just putting the poor in prison as has often been done does not raise the quality of life for the society. The land of opportunity was great because there were seemingly unlimited amouts of land we could take from others to serve our own greed. Now we turn to the natural resources, ie the commons. At some point it's not going to work anymore. The question will have to become "how can I help" rather than "I got mine, now see If you can get yours." Unless we could make the argument that wars and suffering increase our quality of life or we will just go populate another planet because we ruined this one.

  18. #217
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    I can see that we have reached the point already where someone with a low IQ is already somewhat useless as most of the jobs that are just physical and just repetitious have been automated. That may already be an issue. But anyone of average intelligence can get a job running a machine that automates things and despite all the advances over the years, that has not changed and I would say it's unlikely to change. There is a huge shortage of people who work with their hands right now despite all of the equipment we have to make those jobs easier and less messy.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #218
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Never met a machine that didn't break.
    Getting parts, that's another story.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  20. #219
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    Saltybee that's a bit facetious. If the machine breaks so much that It costs the same as a human it's likely the human will keep their job and the engineers will go back to the drawing table. So even when a machine breaks and a mechanic has work there will still be plenty of good folks without.
    And yes, the first automated jobs were the "low IQ" jobs but as our machines get more intelegent the unemployed are getting increasingly intelegent as well. And we have absolutely created tech jobs but as above, if the technology ultimately is no better (cheaper) than the human then no one will invest in it.
    I would hypothesize that the reason we have crime and poor health is because we have disgruntled people. The reason we have disgruntled people is that they cannot find meaning in their lives (/ work). So if we are really interested in moving our society forward and creating better quality of life we will need to modernize intelegently and make sure we give everyone an opportunity to have meaning / higher purpose in their life / work, regardless of IQ. Were the Soviets (and others) correct in just killing off people with special needs or do they also have a right to a human existence?

  21. #220
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Amibusiness,
    It is not quite that simple. Machines are not responsible for slums. Isolation and it's poor health are not limited to the unemployed.
    Automation prevention in one locality preserves jobs in the short term. Until competition collapses the whole business.
    Rambling; doing other things.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

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