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  1. #121
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    Just for clarification, salty, they don't graze over my well head but rather his well head. Both wells go to same aquifer. Point well taken, maybe with all the rest of polution whether we believe in global warming or know it to be a hoax won't really matter....

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  3. #122
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    It seems that man is inclined to be contrary rather than co operative. Perhaps we are hard wired for it!
    If you want an eye-opener, buy a hummingbird feeder and place it right outside your kitchen window.
    Doesn't watching sweet little hummingbirds at your feeder sound peaceful?
    Guess again!
    ALL THEY DO IS FIGHT!
    They are hardwired to fight, and unfortunately, I think crofter is right; we are also.
    But if....just if, we try real hard, we should be able to overcome the primal instinct as we do many others in our daily life.
    I'll go first........
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  4. #123
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Proverbs 16:24

  5. #124
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglerock View Post
    Although I agree with his post; you're right. Not going to gain anything by slamming someones views.

    Climate Change is here. Finding common ground to work towards saving our planet is what is needed. Not pointing fingers at someone who believes differently than you do. That solves nothing. Sadly China is far ahead in Green Energy; and if we would just work together, we, the US, could create a lot of jobs and pull ourselves up by our boot straps. The problem is in DC... they won't work together to help fix this country. So it's up to us, our Local and State government, to start it and maybe they will follow. As long as Corporate keep their hands out of our leaders pockets. LOL
    "Climate Change is Here"
    Folks Climate has been changing for eons. 2 major Ice ages, Ice miles thick down to Ohio. then receding back to where it is now. There are fossil remains of tropical ferns in Alaska. Climate Change is a "important part of our world" It allows spices to migrate back and forth, north to south and vers visa. Many things can cause this variation. Suns energy output, and volcanic activity are two very big contributors. IMO IF we humans "Stop" climate change the beginning of the end is put in motion. Ice ages occasionally scrape of big parts of the earth to allow "renewal" Volcanoes pump up fresh "stuff" from the core to have a few million years on the surface, and bury other stuff ( virus, Spores, prions, and other things ) that may be bad for the Eco environment, Once it is pushed down to the core of the Magma for a few million years, it is destroyed and made back in to basic building blocks. As we see evidence of Tropical Ferns in Alaska, and 2 major ice ages, and Tectonic plate shift, I personally do not buy the Man make global warming, Come on we have only been in North America for 300 years, in the million year, cycle theory, this 2-5 degree shift is "normal" and has Happened many times, with out humans. Now can we mess the planet up? with enough Nukes probably we can. There was a paper I read that Mount St Helen put more soot and ash in the atmosphere than all the cars in like 20 years. If you wish to stop global warming then preventing the next 4 or 5 volcanic eruptions would be a better place to spend time. As far as invasive species, every species that is still alive needed to invade south during the last 2 ice ages and invade north after they melted. so if a species cannot invade and the climate changes it is eventually stranded and dies out. I am referring to plants here, I have not really spent much time looking at critters. But we can agree that during the last two ice ages the "bees" moved out of Finland and northern Russian, and then post Ice age moved back north. Also if you are in the camp of the trees are saving us, during the Ice age many square miles of forest in north America and Europe were obviously not there. it was covered in Ice. The current "mantra" is save the forest or the planet will "heat up" is an interesting theory, compared to the ice age melting back and trees "invading" the north post the last 2 ice ages. IMO there is lots to learn about climate yet. Remember we humans once thought the world was flat, based on the "current Knowledge of the day" And they jailed the first couple dudes that said the world was round. Lets not criminalize the few people that are "deniers" as they will likely be the ones who are correct. IF we had an 3rd major Ice age today, likely some people would blame humans, and use it to seize power over others . When this is normal activity for the Earth.
    To Summarize climate change have been here for several Million years..............
    Last edited by Gray Goose; 10-29-2019 at 11:05 AM. Reason: clarity

  6. #125
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    "Climate Change is Here"
    .... Lets not criminalize the few people that are "deniers" ........
    The "deniers" must be really classified as in:
    - those who deny the "climate is changing at all"
    - those who deny the "humans are at fault" of climate change
    - those who deny "humans need to do anything"
    - those who deny "humans can do anything"
    - those who deny that "climate change causes any significant affects"
    - those who deny that "climate is getting warmer" at their place
    - those who deny that "climate is getting colder" at their place
    - .... OK, I am tired to keep coming up with more brackets; obviously, some of these overlap/intersect.

    In all - the "denier" bracket is not an umbrella.
    These entire talk is meaningless anymore.

    Now, GG, some of the "deniers" actually do deny the "climate is changing at all".
    Even on this exact forum.

    PS:
    I already stated how for the purposes of my daily life the Earth is mostly flat surface (and got mocked about it too);
    this is true for the vast majority of people (whether they admit it or not, if they even thought about it).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #126
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    GG,
    There you go, punching holes in my favorite defensive conversation stopper. When I am approached by the pipeline protesters about the evils of fossil fuels I tell them my wife and I planted over 14,000 pine trees, what have YOU done, other than complain? Shuts them up quick.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  8. #127
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    GG,
    There you go, punching holes in my favorite defensive conversation stopper. When I am approached by the pipeline protesters about the evils of fossil fuels I tell them my wife and I planted over 14,000 pine trees, what have YOU done, other than complain? Shuts them up quick.

    Alex
    Yep, a whole lot of it is slacktivism: Do a google on it for fun. Mostly virtue signalling to make themselves feel good without making any sacrifice.

    I do see a problem developing due to a huge amount of wasteful activities of humans. That is accelerating the depletion of fossil energy resources which are not renewable by any human timeframe. (yes they could be replaced by same method they were created)

    Some of the activities that create no tangible goods or very inefficient food items. Golf, the olympics, football and other orgainzed sports, car racing, holywood, irrigated almond orchards! Wouldn't I be popular!

    These activities are just a sample of how things have changed in just a few hundred years. I saw a vivid comparison of this change that used the per person environmental impact/footprint at the start of the industrial revolution compared to today. Then it was relative to that of a common dolphin and today, to that of the largest whale! What 3 - 4 hundred years; scary if you project it forward!

    I have to plead guilty too. Can't even use the excuse that I dont know any better. Maybe there is hope; my grandaughter is headed into second year university studying environmental science.
    Frank

  9. #128
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    GG,
    There you go, punching holes in my favorite defensive conversation stopper. When I am approached by the pipeline protesters about the evils of fossil fuels I tell them my wife and I planted over 14,000 pine trees, what have YOU done, other than complain? Shuts them up quick.

    Alex
    Sorry did not mean to poke holes , BTW I have planted close to 45,000 trees Mostly to have better deer habitat, wind protection etc.

  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    The "deniers" must be really classified as in:
    - those who deny the "climate is changing at all"
    - those who deny the "humans are at fault" of climate change
    - those who deny "humans need to do anything"
    - those who deny "humans can do anything"
    - those who deny that "climate change causes any significant affects"
    - those who deny that "climate is getting warmer" at their place
    - those who deny that "climate is getting colder" at their place
    - .... OK, I am tired to keep coming up with more brackets; obviously, some of these overlap/intersect.

    In all - the "denier" bracket is not an umbrella.
    These entire talk is meaningless anymore.

    Now, GG, some of the "deniers" actually do deny the "climate is changing at all".
    Even on this exact forum.

    PS:
    I already stated how for the purposes of my daily life the Earth is mostly flat surface (and got mocked about it too);
    this is true for the vast majority of people (whether they admit it or not, if they even thought about it).
    I meant the Deniers of man made climate change if it matters, and Wanted to point out the climate is "Always" changing. BTW there is no other advantage to "non man made" change hence the debate.
    And the best minds at one time thought the earth was flat. Today the best minds may or may not be 100% correct. Humans have often felt they had a handle on the planet only to be shown other wise. IMO getting off planet is the only true way forward, as our sun will eventually die and the earth eventually be a block of ICE at normal space temperature. But we have a long while for that "extinction event" to happen, and as I understand dieing stars we basically will burn up first then freeze. Blaming the hurricanes on Man made Global warming is IMO the same as blaming the eclipse of the Sun on not enough virgins sacrificed at the sun alter. Kill a bunch more , see no more eclipse for many years must have worked..Humans as a group are very gullible.

  11. #130
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Sorry did not mean to poke holes , BTW I have planted close to 45,000 trees Mostly to have better deer habitat, wind protection etc.
    I was just kidding you.

    After we finished my wife said she was never getting on a tractor again. She drove and I rode on the planter poking trees in the ground.

    We had a lot of mature oak trees on the place so we planted pines everywhere we could. I wish we had planted some black locust back then, but we are now rectifying that mistake.

    What kind of trees did you plant?

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  12. #131
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    I was just kidding you.

    After we finished my wife said she was never getting on a tractor again. She drove and I rode on the planter poking trees in the ground.

    We had a lot of mature oak trees on the place so we planted pines everywhere we could. I wish we had planted some black locust back then, but we are now rectifying that mistake.

    What kind of trees did you plant?

    Alex
    White pine , White Spruce, Norway Spruce, Scotch pine a few hemlock and cedar which were "orderves" for the deer and some Larch/Tamarack. Berry bushes as well, About a 1000 of each, Buffalo Plum, Nanny berry, Red Oiser Dogwood, Service berry, they were for the Sharp tails. been moving a few cart loads of Willows, Spruce and scotch pine every year from ditches and power line where they get brush hogged about every 3 years. the moved ones do good they are 10 -16 inch tall, and I take a 8 inch plug with a shovel. Mostly fill in places where the planted ones died. Most of mine we bare root and some were plugs 42mm and 50mm tried rooting sticks and they mostly browned up in August. I have a row of 500 popular rooting sticks, that had 3 survivors. All 500 cedars and 500 hemlock were chewed down each year until they died, it has been a learning experience. For ever green in mature oak, the White pine, Balsam and Hemlock are shade tolerant.
    in order the deer will eat the hemlock, then Balsam , then the pine. so if you have a lot of deer the little trees get hit hard. My best solution was to eat a lot of deer sausage.... until the trees get 2.5 to 3 inch then they only get wiped out by buck rubs.
    GG

  13. #132
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    My best solution was to eat a lot of deer sausage.... until the trees get 2.5 to 3 inch then they only get wiped out by buck rubs.
    GG
    +1 Ah, Bambi burger. 'Tho I make a pretty good vension jerky too.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  14. #133
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Wow GG, sounds like quite a project. It's very satisfying to look back on a job well done.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  15. #134
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    Wow GG, sounds like quite a project. It's very satisfying to look back on a job well done.

    Alex
    It is Alex. I have 4 rows of trees for appx 1 mile at road edges. I made the poor decision to want privacy and buy a plot on the corner of 2 roads. I then did a 10 Acre reforestation. then Several 400 to 1000 foot Wildlife corridors. I also put in a couple ponds they are fun too. it is like a back yard scape project only bigger. my largest trees I personally put in the ground are like 5 to 6 inch across the base, and 16-24 feet high. It is really coming together. I also did a couple strips of Switch grass and Big bluestem 60 yards by 700 yards. next year I have a 1000 Rhizomes on order from http://mapleriverfarms.com/index.php be interesting to see how they do. May be a good hedge for bees , It is supposed to get 8 feet tall and form a hedge in a few years.
    too many ideas , not enough time.
    GG

  16. #135
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    .......
    in order the deer will eat the hemlock, then Balsam , then the pine. so if you have a lot of deer the little trees get hit hard. My best solution was to eat a lot of deer sausage.... until the trees get 2.5 to 3 inch then they only get wiped out by buck rubs.
    GG
    Wow, GG!
    YOU are the real deal.
    People talk and talk, but you actually plant!

    Well, I am trying to plant lots of ... apple trees.
    I am an underground apple tree planter/grafter.
    It is rather informal and in public space.


    I hate deer, because the deer love little apple trees (to browse).
    Row of Antonovka apples just can not get going - clipped back over and over.
    Grrrrr.....
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #136
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Wow, GG!
    YOU are the real deal.
    People talk and talk, but you actually plant!

    Well, I am trying to plant lots of ... apple trees.
    I am an underground apple tree planter/grafter.
    It is rather informal and in public space.


    I hate deer, because the deer love little apple trees (to browse).
    Row of Antonovka apples just can not get going - clipped back over and over.
    Grrrrr.....
    For apple trees, We put a 24 inch tall fine screen, 1/8 inch mesh if you buy or old window screen if you have access, 6-8 inch circle, at the base. (check a shop that replaces screen, they will likely have a barrel full of old screen) Keeps the woolly mice from girding the bark under the snow in winter. do not use straw around the trees for mulch as this makes "mouse apartments" then 6 foot T posts either 3 or 4, in a 4-5 foot circle, with checkered fence at least 5 foot high for deer. I actually seen some rolls of fence being removed from farms and stopped to "offer" free haul away, some agreed. if the outer fence has big enough holes for rabbits then you need 2 rounds overlapped to split the holes, tie wraps can hold the position. At my farm with out protection the mice, rabbits and deer, just abuse the apple trees to the point of no or very little growth. truly frustrating. For the mulch make a couple 8-12 foot circles of the fence, toss in the leaves/grass clippings/ rabbit or chicken manure, etc.. Alternate years and put the 2 year old decomposed stuff under the trees, mice like the loft and fresher straw/leaves/grass clippings, so I found pre breakdown, makes the mulch less inviting. Also if you have only a few trees close by the house, after the first few snow storms stomp all the snow around the tree 4-6 foot circle, so it freezes, then the subnivian zone is destroyed, mice do not scratch thru Ice to get to bark. Grafting is cool stuff too, my dad grafted, I never got the hang of it, I am 50% at best, and do not do bud graft,, only the type where you cut the stump off on a 1.5 inch tree root stock and then split it, place in a twig cut to the wedge shape of the crack, tie, coat with bees wax, wrap with and old Cloth or nylons to keep from drying out. Good luck with the trees Greg. At some point one can barter with fruit for lumber or jars or $$. If you find a good book on propagating from limbs/branches, I would be interested, thanks
    GG
    p.s for the deer if you shoot one in the fall they tend to stay away for a while, so the kill is a deterrent to the rest of the doe group. Or place a crude blind near the apple trees and toss in some used socks or a T shirt once a week so the deer "think" you are there (this needs good amount of human scent on it). there are many sausage/jerky DYI on the net. my family eats 2-3 deer a year. Make them fear your yard, some blood and guts will help. never killing one makes your yard a "safe" zone. Also if your tree orchard is compact, an electric fence works as well and may be easier, than each tree, 2 to 3 strands.

  18. #137
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    For apple trees, We put a 24 inch tall fine screen, 1/8 inch mesh if you buy or old window screen if you have access, 6-8 inch circle, at the base. ............ Good luck with the trees Greg. At some point one can barter with fruit for lumber or jars or $$. If you find a good book on propagating from limbs/branches, I would be interested, thanks
    GG
    I got the 24 inch tall screens already.
    All below is secure.
    It is the above - deer would not just let them grow the above 24 inch - 3rd season wasted now.
    Maybe some deer repellent is in order OR indeed do the 5-6 foot around each tree to make them finally grow.
    Unfortunately, this is all suburban public properties - I can not shoot there or do the blinds.

    I will be retiring from the potatoes next season and will focus on my neglected trees instead.

    Grafting is really very easy and requires not much (razer blade with a pack of extra blades; electrical tape).
    All is on youtube.
    I only practice whip-and-tung - very good success (90%+)
    My favorite grafting v-blogger - http://skillcult.com/
    He is big into apples.
    Me too - collecting an apple variety stash (by grafting onto big trees).

    Propagation - toss lots of apple cores/seeds into you compost pile and let the naturally sprout.
    When some are sprouted - replant them into the pots or beds.
    When you have good 3-4 foot whip - graft whip-and-tung and thus replace the replacement trunk going up.
    The seedlings (considering random factor) or Antonovka root-stock will be the most robust in your area.

    All in all, there is lots of tree planting, prairie restoration, and pollution clean up to be done.
    Why argue of the Global Warming.
    Meh.
    Just do your part.
    Last edited by GregV; 10-30-2019 at 08:00 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #138
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Personally, I am for clean energy. But I am also for a robust economy. Cutting off this nation's supply of inexpesive energy while alternative sources are still being developed is a sure fire way to assure that China, who is the the worlds largest polluter, takes over.
    I set foot in this debate with trepidation.
    What's happening now is that the cost of zero marginal cost energy has fallen to the point where it is displacing carbon fueled plants. India has just cancelled 14 new coal plants in favor of wind/solar, and China, the World's largest manufacturer of electric buses and cars, is also building solar and wind faster than any other country. We in North America have a way to go.
    The big question is, can we become carbon neutral in time to avoid the worst of it?
    I want bees that make up for my mistakes.

  20. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnor View Post
    I set foot in this debate with trepidation.
    What's happening now is that the cost of zero marginal cost energy has fallen to the point where it is displacing carbon fueled plants. India has just cancelled 14 new coal plants in favor of wind/solar, and China, the World's largest manufacturer of electric buses and cars, is also building solar and wind faster than any other country. We in North America have a way to go.
    The big question is, can we become carbon neutral in time to avoid the worst of it?
    Ok I ask this with similar trepidation , what will carbon Neutral, get the USA? is there any proven issues with slight carbon increase, in my plant growth mind the trees and grass grow faster with "more" carbon available. realizing that for many millennia, the grass and forest fires raged, unstopped, and we now shut them down as soon as we can, And there is a good bit of carbon locked up in lumber for homes that has been cut in the past and trees regrowing in the same places. As I recall from my science class not much is destroyed, carbon released in the Atmosphere is recycled back into trees and wood, faster tree growth is more oxygen release. IF we could trap and bury the carbon will not the tree growth slow and Oxygen release slow ? I know the oceans are also involved, but warmer water has faster plankton growth, faster carbon use, so the whole system is somewhat self regulating. where are we today in the 100,000 year graph of carbon in the atmosphere? high middle low? I mean how does one calculate the removal of carbon, by the oceans and trees and grass etc. Not arguing here just trying to understand the big picture. So if we are carbon neutral, I would think Canada is Carbon negative, more than 1/2 their population lives in a 100 mile strip at the north US boarder and most of the rest is trees. All the oceans are Carbon Negative and they cover a lot of the planets surface .
    GG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Ok I ask this with similar trepidation , what will carbon Neutral, get the USA? is there any proven issues with slight carbon increase, in my plant growth mind the trees and grass grow faster with "more" carbon available. realizing that for many millennia, the grass and forest fires raged, unstopped, and we now shut them down as soon as we can, And there is a good bit of carbon locked up in lumber for homes that has been cut in the past and trees regrowing in the same places. As I recall from my science class not much is destroyed, carbon released in the Atmosphere is recycled back into trees and wood, faster tree growth is more oxygen release. IF we could trap and bury the carbon will not the tree growth slow and Oxygen release slow ? I know the oceans are also involved, but warmer water has faster plankton growth, faster carbon use, so the whole system is somewhat self regulating. where are we today in the 100,000 year graph of carbon in the atmosphere? high middle low? I mean how does one calculate the removal of carbon, by the oceans and trees and grass etc. Not arguing here just trying to understand the big picture. So if we are carbon neutral, I would think Canada is Carbon negative, more than 1/2 their population lives in a 100 mile strip at the north US boarder and most of the rest is trees. All the oceans are Carbon Negative and they cover a lot of the planets surface .
    GG
    one more thing . for me IMO I do not think the system was "designed" to have large blocks of carbon "under ground a mile or 2" Volcanic activity and plate shift and earthquakes would "randomly" release massive amounts at once. As we are still here and the earth is habitable the system can handle large releases. So IMO it can also handle slow releases. Also at one point in time say Day 1 for the earth, there was no carbon burried. the ice ages scraped the trees into a pile and covered it to be pressured into coal , oil etc. Just as burring cash in the back yard in not best for the economy, IMO piles of burried carbon in not the "best" state for the earth. It is a known fact from Ice core samples, from the arctic, we had more Oxygen in the past in the Atmosphere. More Carbon would have more tree growth which would with photo Synthesis produce more Oxygen. Again Carbon neutral is no change, the constant I see with the earth is "always changing" the real driver will be cost, the easy carbon has been pulled up as it costs more we pull less and use more "other" energy, so this will soon pass as an issue any way.

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