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Thread: Global Warming

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    Name one prediction of climate scientists that has ever come true.
    There has been only 1 prediction from climate scientists that I've ever seen come true: "If the world keeps buying our BS, we'll be rolling in the money. But if they stop, we'll have to actually go out and get real J-O-B's." I can't remember which one said that or when. Al Gore maybe?

    I have the utmost respect for you Michael. In many ways, you're a hero to me. So it really hurts to have to say the above!

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasFreedom View Post
    There has been only 1 prediction from climate scientists that I've ever seen come true: "If the world keeps buying our BS, we'll be rolling in the money. But if they stop, we'll have to actually go out and get real J-O-B's." I can't remember which one said that or when. Al Gore maybe?

    I have the utmost respect for you Michael. In many ways, you're a hero to me. So it really hurts to have to say the above!
    Lol.
    Know how Al Gore got into politics?
    He inherited his seat from his father who was deeply involved in making the National Highway System.
    Made him very wealthy too.

  4. #103
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    What is the climate supposed to be, and who gets to say? I can grow avocados at my place now and I think that is a good thing.

  5. #104
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer Jim View Post
    What is the climate supposed to be, and who gets to say?
    Other than God?
    No one I can name but certainly not the UN or the Democrats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer Jim
    I can grow avocados at my place now and I think that is a good thing.
    It is if you like avocados.
    My wife does!

  6. #105
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    Default

    Someone mentioned free market. Surely that was intended as a joke. As long as there are subsidies there is no free market. As long as tax payers fund any clean up and research there is no free market. As long as tax payers fund "insurance" for nuclear energy, or subsidize flood insurance, etc there is no free market. And yes, regulations that regulate freedom must imply there is no free market. However, advertisements that lie (or attempt to come as close as possible) take some of my freedom of choice as well, not necessarily technically but morally. This applies to all markets, polution, and even global warming.
    A conventional tomato costs far less in the grocery store than an organic one.... Until you factor in the subsidies: chem company to manufacture something that will "save" farming, farm subsidies, transportation, cleanup of all the waste and runoff from these processes....
    The most important regulation would be one that ties the cleanup costs into the original price. Notice how containers are now huge with only half as much in them? If we had to pay more for the container.... Then trash collection would be paid on the front end and could be "free" on the back end. (Or even incentivised of we could make sure people would not be putting rocks in there to increase their income....)
    Bottom line: all pollution cleanup costs should be paid by the consuser at time of purchase to inform the descision in order to have a truly free market. Yes life would change. We would stop buying the things that we could not afford. That is only reasonable. Now we can buy the things we cannot afford because we don't know we can't afford them. Wierd, huh? And whether or not this relates directly to climate change could be moot. Industries would be incentivised to make sure they are doing things cleanly and keep ahead of researchers in order to keep their industries(!)

  7. #106
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Amibusiness View Post
    ... Until you factor in the subsidies: chem company to manufacture something that will "save" farming, farm subsidies, transportation, cleanup of all the waste and runoff from these processes.....
    Just like I said - the true costs must be factored in, charged up, and printed on your receipts.
    They are NOT now.
    Yes - it is going to hurt; then it will become a norm; habits will change.

    People will start riding the bikes more (to save on real parking fees and the real fuel costs AND become healthier too, for some change):
    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/w...=pocket-newtab
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #107
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    We do pay upfront for many products that now come in nice neat and handy portions.
    I remember when nails, screws, etc. were bought by the pound from a bin and taken home in a sack.. Although I am too young to remember pickle or cracker barrels. And I don't mean the restaurant!

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  9. #108
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    I'm in favor of getting off of the "Denier" or "Believer" kick and going back to the simple message of cutting pollution.
    Back in the 1970s Oregon instituted the "bottle bill" that mandated a 5 cent deposit on beverage cans and bottles.
    I remember the excitement in our churches and schools as everyone got involved and turned in mountains of cans.
    What was there to believe or deny? There was none of that nonsense!
    We need to ditch the bickering and go back to the simple message of working together to cut pollution in all forms.
    Who is against that?
    All of the rest is nothing but tribalism.
    Might as well bicker about favorite sports teams.....
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  10. #109
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    The majority of the population is not interested in acting wisely or paying up front if the cost can be deferred in any way. They would scream bloody murder though about any attempt to put in place any such mechanisms! They would say it interferes with their divinely given freedoms! It really, really is hard to help them.
    Frank

  11. #110
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    The majority of the population is not interested in acting wisely or paying up front if the cost can be deferred in any way. They would scream bloody murder though about any attempt to put in place any such mechanisms! They would say it interferes with their divinely given freedoms! It really, really is hard to help them.
    Let me point out here that when you complain people aren't paying "the true cost" then who is paying?
    The government?
    So we actually ARE paying the costs.
    Basically what y'all stand for is punishing people for not living as you want and riding bicycles and setting their thermostats to 50 degrees in the winter and a bunch more stuff those at the top are promoting but DON'T DO THEMSELVES.

    As usual the left are the ones who want to determine what is "acting wisely" in all cases it is NOT wise.
    It causes major problems and suffering just like anywhere that suffers from an excess of "left wise acting".
    I am sick of people demanding everyone change to suit them and hand over more money and sacrifice more freedom in the name of "it's for your own good".
    Must I start naming all the countries and US cities that have gone down hard under the control of those who believe they know what is best for everyone else?
    Go live in a cave for a decade and lead by example.

  12. #111
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    when you complain people aren't paying "the true cost" then who is paying?

    When a "local" benefit is paid for by a larger body the "government" or a later group "Superfund site" victims in poor health or myself "smog alert in Maine".
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  13. #112
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by LizardKing View Post
    .........
    So we actually ARE paying the costs.
    Basically what y'all stand for is punishing people for not living as you want .....
    What we are paying is trivial, nominal costs (nothing close to the real costs).
    Like I said - the trash removal service in my suburb of flat 100$/year/household is not the true cost.

    Here is the Freedom to do as you wish.
    No need to pay the costs.
    No government for you to blame onto.
    Read on:
    (it maybe we are looking at the 21st century life right here):
    There is no trash service. Disposal of waste is the responsibility of each individual resident; many just leave trash where they last used it.
    Those that bother to dispose of their trash either bury it outside of town or burn it in the street.
    https://sometimes-interesting.com/20...inconada-peru/

    Why bother?
    Who needs local government?
    Or any government?
    .............no plumbing or sanitation, as no permanent city services were ever anticipated. The ground is contaminated with mercury, and with no trash service, the more responsible residents either bury it outside of town or burn it in the streets, while those less ambitious just leave it wherever it drops.
    https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/...rinconada-peru
    Last edited by GregV; 10-25-2019 at 12:25 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #113
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    dup
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #114
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    .......
    Here is the Freedom to do as you wish.
    No need to pay the costs.
    No government for you to blame onto.
    Read on:
    (it maybe we are looking at the 21st century life right here):

    https://sometimes-interesting.com/20...inconada-peru/
    Be sure to read the real-live comments (below the article).
    Here is just a sampler:
    There are no showers at all in Rinconada.
    The water is so contaminated with mercury so you wouldnt want to shower in it.
    Drink only bottled water strictly.
    Be aware that food in restaurants are cooked in this contaminated mountain water.
    So here you go - the "wild wild west" live and the freedoms that come with it.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #115
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    I agree! There are Pros and Cons for every physical event. I applaud simple and complex logic for the good of everyone. I despise people who knowing take advantage of others for their personal gain. Offsets, good and bad, result from every event, every process. I was involved in an industry where "life cycle cost" was a unit of measure for all finite elements of an approach, like reclaiming and recycling cadmium, as well as performance and benefits to get approval for implementation. This "cost" or total cost could easily be identified or estimated and applied at the manufacturing point for all goods. Example the cost to clean up after a gold mine goes dry - no bankruptcy moves, cash collected and escrowed during the good times. One tiny, finite change I have taken is refusing grocery bags, plastic or paper. I use the cart and transfer goods myself to recycled bags stored in my vehicle. Unfortunately "baggers" could lose their job. Maybe I will bring my re-useable bags (unfortunately not recyclable) into the store from now on. Now, how can I recycle my re-useable bags. Another one! I use old tee-shirts as insulation material and moisture absorbers in quilt boxes and bottle feeders. Got another one.................. "thinking" but it generates heat .............hmmmmh? Smile and have a good day.

  17. #116
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Humans are expert at rationalizing the benefits of "live for the moment". That actually is good survival strategy for almost any organism at early stages of their development; find a niche, expand population, displace competition etc. The problem of not looking forward shows up with the mature state where higher consumption starts to create environmental pushback.

    Harry nailed it well here "We need to ditch the bickering and go back to the simple message of working together to cut pollution in all forms.
    Who is against that?
    All of the rest is nothing but tribalism.
    Might as well bicker about favorite sports teams....."

    It seems that man is inclined to be contrary rather than co operative. Perhaps we are hard wired for it! Like I said we certainly are creative at finding excuses to not act for the future. Setting up a "we and a them" is an especially convenient enabler. Creating conspiracy scenarios is also a biggy!

    We do seem as a species to be bit refractory towards forward thinking!
    Frank

  18. #117
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    I'm in favor of getting off of the "Denier" or "Believer" kick and going back to the simple message of cutting pollution.
    Back in the 1970s Oregon instituted the "bottle bill" that mandated a 5 cent deposit on beverage cans and bottles.
    I remember the excitement in our churches and schools as everyone got involved and turned in mountains of cans.
    What was there to believe or deny? There was none of that nonsense!
    We need to ditch the bickering and go back to the simple message of working together to cut pollution in all forms.
    Who is against that?
    All of the rest is nothing but tribalism.
    Might as well bicker about favorite sports teams.....
    You've got my vote. (almost)
    Sports teams; there's always next year.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  19. #118
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Sports teams; there's always next year.
    For some of us, this might be THE year. Go Nats!

    (and please remember to recycle your aluminum and glass beer cans and bottles)
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  20. #119
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    Default

    So for anyone out there who belives God will keep the world or end it: does that mean we are absolved from any responsibility? If no, shouldn't we then clean up after us? If yes, where is the line between what God is responsible for and what I am?
    Also (to others as well), does freedom need to be fair or are some freer than others? I mentioned above that my organic tomato costs more in the store but the conventional one costs more to clean up after. And you have agreed that the government / taxpayer ie you and I, pay for that cleanup whenever someone gets around to cleaning it up. So if you are free to buy the apparently cheap tomato why do I "have" to shoulder the responsibility with you of either cleaning it up or living in the polution it left?
    For those of you frustrated with do gooders on the left who want to tell everyone to do what the left believes in: are you suggesting that we should be allowed to do whatever we want (which includes poluting, apparently) and then just force minorities or poor people to live in the places no longer satisfactory for us privileged few? Because that's been working well for the privileged few so far. Another example, regulation where we are states that you are not allowed to pasture animals within a certain distance of a drilled well head. This is because the nitrogen from the feces can flow right down the outside of the casing and contaminate the aquifer.... which serves many people around. My neighbor grazes his animals right over the well regularly. I have not complained to anyone because I don't want to be an ***** (though his horse was out on my lawn 3 times today and his pigs have done extensive rooting around in my fire pits and lawn which guess who cleans up after? But hey, my bees are in his pool....). Should he have the freedom to contaminate "my" aquifer?
    Isn't there some resonable moral limmit to freedom? Eg do what you want so long as it does not harm anyone or anything?
    And on climate change, as a society we have a choice. The decision depends on whether we believe we have something to do with it or not. How about this global risk assessment: if we do what the believers want and they are wrong we can all go merrily on our way. If we do what the deniers want and they are wrong we have a big problem. According to my theories of risk management I think it's better to err on the side of caution. For you libertarians, conservatives, or right wingers out there, what are actual changes you would "have" to make that could not be accomplished in your world?

  21. #120
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Ah, sidebar.
    People don't just get sick from animal waste, they die. Let his animals over your well and you may not have to worry about global warming.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

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