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Thread: Global Warming

  1. #261
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Yes; exponential growth based on finite resources is a physical impossibility. What is unsupportable eventually collapses.
    Another part of the economic train wreck is the National debt. Folks get elected by promising more freebees, like now in the US free college is a "campaign" discussion point. Why ?? well to buy the vote of the young people to whom free college sounds good. we are spending more than we have, to fulfill promises of politicians of yester year. We as citizens need to keep in mind there is no free lunch and to pay for this lagress more workers are needed each year and the economy needs to expand. Our vote should go for sound policy type folks and less to "what freebee can I get". economic expansion can be nice but expand or go under is not an optimal go forward place to be in long term.
    Sadly the 30 year bonds used for our freebees today will be paid for by our children.
    GG

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  3. #262
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Freebies? Oh, like tax cuts that pay for themselves.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  4. #263
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    Seems like a bit of cherry picking, GG. I'd much rather pay for a better education for our children and our future than for more atomic weapons and weaponizing space. Do you remember the botched mind control program the Pentagon spent millions on in the 50s and 60s? I do believe that countries need to defend themselves. But we could have educated a lot of folks for the money we wasted in Iraq looking for WMDs (not to mention then needing to clean up from Isis (whom we trained) after they came in to fill the vacuum we left; what a nightmare).
    So I agree with your point, that debt is going to ruin us of we don't get smart (and we have already been downgraded), but I disagree with your argument. College is cheaper than war. Are we a society that values killing people to further our own economic and political ends or that values education and thereby increasing our standard of living without having to topple other's governments?
    Reagan said "you get more of what you subsidize". Would you like more war and more dead people or more education and better jobs for our children?
    To be sure, some wealthy Americans can afford college. Any honest study will show that increasing the education and quality of life for a broad spectrum of society does more for the whole society than increasing the quality of life for those already living in a gated community.
    And for those of you who would like to argue that some don't deserve it or will waste it, boohoo. Look how many undeserving "lawyers" and "businessmen" sit in Washington and waste our money. We waste so much on pork barrelling to buy votes we could afford some real programs that benefit all of society if we would just cut those millions spent on political special interests.
    I believe it's common knowledge that education increases a society's standing. But there are still those who believe we ought to be barbarians....

  5. #264
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Freebies? Oh, like tax cuts that pay for themselves.
    Freebees like:
    Proposed free college
    free food
    free housing
    free phones
    free health care
    proposed minimum pay check to all

    You Know hand outs not a hand up. Santa Clause type giveaways you know vote for me and college will be free, or I will support a minimum pay to every person.

    Salty I think you be old enough to understand what I am referring to. Tax cuts,, so I am taking 100 bucks out of your wallet, With the full power of the IRS behind me. That changes to 80 Bucks and that in your mind is a freebee?? Well do not be surprised if some folks see that as less theft. And, vote for me I'll make it 125 bucks and see that college is free,, Is the pandering I am referring to. Every giveaway needs to be funded, normally it is by taking/taxing other people. At some point the folks being milked will either leave the jurisdiction (see what is happening in New York) or stop the effort, as 30 cents on the dollar earned is all they get, bag it I'll put my hand out as well.. Deep down you know this, as we all do. Every $ given away or spent on salaries, bennys, retirement etc. of Fed employees is first lifted from a person, the Feds do not make or earn money, they are the middle man. the 20 some trillion of national debt is the "over spend" take 5 $ spend 8$ and 3 is the national debt. I can wish for tax cuts but that is not a freebee, Freebees are the waste that my tax dollars go for that help motivate voters. What college student or broke parent, is going to choose to not vote for someone offering free college?? This is not terribly complicated.
    GG

  6. #265
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    I have read that democracy has a fatal flaw in that the population can vote themselves gifts from the system. It is a known fact that people will seek and consume what is not in their best long term interest.

    I cant knock the value of education BUT I question the wisdom of some of its present programs. We have "educated" people for non existing jobs that are very unfulfilled burger fllippers. At the same time automation is taking over burger flipping. Critical thinking and system analysis are skills that should have far, far, more emphasis. Collectively, our weakness in these areas seems to be the root of many of our key existential threats. We simply have not been making wise life choices!

    Our human propensity to act for the moment and hugely discount the future is a strong current to row against. We knock the one percenters and five percenters as exploitive, yet it has been said (I think plausibly) that if you were to take all the wealth in the world and divided it equally over the population, in about three months it would be back in the previous hands. Why are we so easily duped?


    Edit; I see GG made a lot of the same points.
    Frank

  7. #266
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I have read that democracy has a fatal flaw in that the population can vote themselves gifts from the system. It is a known fact that people will seek and consume what is not in their best long term interest.

    I cant knock the value of education BUT I question the wisdom of some of its present programs. We have "educated" people for non existing jobs that are very unfulfilled burger fllippers. At the same time automation is taking over burger flipping. Critical thinking and system analysis are skills that should have far, far, more emphasis. Collectively, our weakness in these areas seems to be the root of many of our key existential threats. We simply have not been making wise life choices!

    Our human propensity to act for the moment and hugely discount the future is a strong current to row against. We knock the one percenters and five percenters as exploitive, yet it has been said (I think plausibly) that if you were to take all the wealth in the world and divided it equally over the population, in about three months it would be back in the previous hands. Why are we so easily duped?


    Edit; I see GG made a lot of the same points.
    Frank, good post. I have heard that most lotto winners are bankrupt in 5 years. Also lot of rock stars and pro sports folks make big bucks for a short time, then also end up broke. As humans I think we grow our expenditures as fast as income. But when the income drops we do not drop the lifestyle. If I had froze my lifestyle at 30Years old I would be retired now. I am trying to teach my kids to live on 1/2 of their income and Invest the rest. With the adds on TV to consume, it will be an Uphill Battle. Some how we need to define happy as less that we have instead of, if I could be like that guy or gal on TV or the guy next door, then I would be happy. In College I lived on 150 bucks a month and for the most part have many good memories and did not define my self as "poor" now 1500 a month would pose a challenge.
    I am trying to Calibrate expectations, and resist incremental increases in lifestyle. But that new tractor is sure sweet.............
    Have a great day
    GG

  8. #267
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Freebees like:
    Proposed free college
    free food
    free housing
    free phones
    free health care
    proposed minimum pay check to all

    You Know hand outs not a hand up. Santa Clause type giveaways you know vote for me and college will be free, or I will support a minimum pay to every person.

    Salty I think you be old enough to understand what I am referring to. GG
    Old enough? So very true. Old enough to know there is a great deal of waste. Old enough to know that a tax cut that pays for itself is a lie, and it did not take me 3 years to figure that out. Can I call you a Bill Clinton fan for bringing the deficit down ?

    The trouble with Republicans is they think everybody is a bum.
    The trouble with Democrats is they think nobody is.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  9. #268
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    Invest in the people is the best strategy. Sure, some are duds and it will be a "waste." But even then not necessarily. As far as I know every minimum pay for all people experiment (ok 2: 1 in Holland and 1 in india) that I've read about showed great economic potential. The small amount invested now payed off in greater productivity. We spend more than anyone on prisons. Invest in the people rather than tell them they are worthless, and the savings will come in.
    Much economic theory that dominates politics today comes out of the Chicago school and has been / is being proven false. When the data is not doctored to meet political ends it reveals another picture: for example unskilled imigrants are not taking our jobs, so the entire border wall hullabaloo is pandering to a political base that is misseducated on economics. (And if safety is your concern 1) most crimes are committed by people who are here / come in legally, so that money could be focussed more effectively, and 2) what better way to make a future terrorist / maladjusted individual hate us than by tearing their family apart and keeping children in "cages" for their "safety?" Talk about being short sighted! And that debt will be borne by our children as well.)
    However, GG, you bring up another excellent point: free (or any) education is only worthwhile if it is a good education. Plenty of resources are wasted on bad schools, from primary to university. And much is wasted by people who get pushed through an ivy league (read "good") school because their parents are big donors....
    So part of the discussion must be on creating better schools and we are coming up short. Our young children perform well when compared internationally. Our 12th graders consistently perform poorly. So I agree, just because it is "free" does not mean it is a good investment, for an individual or for a government (/politician).

  10. #269
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Old enough? So very true. Old enough to know there is a great deal of waste. Agree we are on the same page here
    Old enough to know that a tax cut that pays for itself is a lie, and it did not take me 3 years to figure that out. Well it took several years for the Bush tax cuts to be felt like during Clinton's years,
    Can I call you a Bill Clinton fan for bringing the deficit down ? see previous, Bill was the beneficiary of the previous policy. Likewise the next president will be the beneficiary to the Trump Cuts, The velocity of money increase, is not the instant cure all , it takes time, often several years. We are so used to instant every thing the concept of doing something for 5 to 10 years down the road is foreign to us. Giving people more of their own money is not a bad policy IMO. they spend some of it locally, which impacts jobs and the community economy. The Feds spending it impacts the big defense contractors minus the cost to manage it., at the expense of the local economy. I make it a point to spend 20% locally. Local Milk, local beef, frequent stands for vegetables in town on Saturdays. local orchards etc. Is it cheaper at Walmart, probably, which is good for Sam Walton's kids , not for my community.

    The trouble with Republicans is they think everybody is a bum. disagree some are and some are not.
    The trouble with Democrats is they think nobody is. disagree some are and some are not.

    I am neither, I am a constitutional conservative And that is different than a republican.

    Salty we likely are close to the same way of thinking, I am an American first, a Michigander Second, A Christian 3rd, a Father 4th, beekeeper 5th ....maybe a Conservative 6th or 7th. We both just want life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Divide and conquer, we are being pitted against each other on Purpose IMO Bread and circus,, look over here, not at what I am really doing behind the scenes.
    When was the last time you called your congressman and stated to slow spending to match income? I do it every year, not sure enough of us "are concerned" to make a difference.
    GG

  11. #270
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    GG, I'm not sure we are thinking of the same taxes: I was not paying a whole lot of attention to Bush senior, but didn't he raise taxes in his Omnibus package? Which Clinton benefited from.
    And then didn't W. Bush cut taxes in his first term? And the results were felt and 5-10 years down the line, as you suggest, and inherrited by his successor. Remember 2008? Again, I think you are cherry picking to say that tax cuts work the way conservatives claim.

  12. #271
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Yes; exponential growth based on finite resources is a physical impossibility. What is unsupportable eventually collapses.
    Of course.
    Meanwhile they (who are supposed to be in the know) keep ranting of the economic growth as if overruling axiom.
    We need growth, we need more growth, blah, blah....

    IMO, what we really need is a good old recession instead - a reality check and a correction.
    The bubble will burst, only a matter of time.
    Which, btw, will make beekeeping products more valuable - a bonus.

    Well, people will prefer new Chinese bosses, instead of growing some veg on the backyards, I think.
    New bosses from China are already here.
    Take-over is in progress as we speak:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/15/u...=pocket-newtab
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #272
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    GG you left out cynic. I try to be cynical of myself.
    But it is so hard to do for a modest genus like myself.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  14. #273
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post

    IMO, what we really need is a good old recession instead - a reality check and a correction.
    The bubble will burst, only a matter of time.
    Didn't we just have one of those, beginning in late 2008?

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  15. #274
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by AHudd View Post
    Didn't we just have one of those, beginning in late 2008?

    Alex
    Participation in community gardens did not increase (these are specifically created for the poor - I never met them there).
    Using backyard for vegetables did not increase (middle class was not going hungry).
    Clearly, no one was hurting for food.

    Spending habits did not change.
    Excessive lifestyles did not change.
    I did not see much a recession around me, nor I felt it personally.

    I suppose we may have had a recession according to the "news" and "statistics".
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #275
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    Similarly the "news" says the economy is booming right now. I know on wall street, and for those who have more than they need and so can deposit some there, there is plenty of money floating around. However, around here the economy seems much the same. So congratulations to all those whose investments have been skyrocketing. Clearly you won't need anybody to look out for you because the system is set up for you to prosper. However, for so many others not so fortunate, let's have some policies to give you a leg up. Clearly you will need somebody to look out for you because the system is set up for you to struggle or fail.
    Now, now, let's not have the fortunate one holler "I got mine, they can get theirs!" because the system (financial, government, education, law enforcement, etc) is set up for some to prosper and others to fail. If it really were an equal playing field then there would be some merit to that argument.
    Isn't our democracy supposed to be majority rule with protection for minorities? Maybe I went to a terrible school but that's what I was led to believe. What we have is minority rule with protections for the same ruling minority. And anyone who says "well, you get to vote," I'd say "not for president." with the electoral college only those in swing states vote for president. Sometimes I wonder if we decided to put "mock" back in "democracy." And if we did away with the electoral college and other corruptions we still would not have majority rule because only about 65% of the voters vote! And another almost 25% are under age! Not to mention felons who are no longer granted rights of citizenship even after they have served their time! So in this country the "leader" can be "democratically elected" with less than 25% of peiple voting for him(!). I am not suggesting that babes should vote. Just that it is a long shot from majority rule. Don't kid yourself.
    Cheers! I appreciate the thread, esp GG for continuing to post thoughtful "challenges" to "liberal agendas" (not his words).

  17. #276
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Ami, I am afraid you may have gone to a terrible school. We do not live in a democracy. We live in a democratic republic. There is a huge difference. We do vote, and our votes count, but states vote as a block in presidential elections. Both sides must play by the same rules so sometimes it is frustrating when your candidate is not elected or your state voted opposite of your wishes. What can be even worse is when your candidate does win and then fails to deliver. That is when one has nobody to blame but themselves. I hate politics almost as much as I hate politicians.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  18. #277
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    How do you displace the apathy? How do you innoculate the population against gullibility? I think some of our cultural belief systems are being used as a control mechanism. We really cannot go there on this forum, but that and other forms of symbolism can be weaponized. Edward Bernays dedicated his life to understanding and applying the ways that people can be coerced into giving up their freedom of self determination without even realizing it.

    "Being one with the flock is cold comfort indeed, if their decisions are not ultimately survivable: ask any newly jumped sheep at the foot of a cliff"!
    Frank

  19. #278
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Be careful what you wish for.......as you apparently are not part of the poor class. You also have to ask yourself what "poor" really means. You also should be aware of the fiat system. It saved your butt based on "good will and faith".

    I may have to buy a squirrel rifle.

  20. #279
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Ami, I am afraid you may have gone to a terrible school. We do not live in a democracy. We live in a democratic republic. There is a huge difference. We do vote, and our votes count, but states vote as a block in presidential elections. Both sides must play by the same rules so sometimes it is frustrating when your candidate is not elected or your state voted opposite of your wishes. What can be even worse is when your candidate does win and then fails to deliver. That is when one has nobody to blame but themselves. I hate politics almost as much as I hate politicians.
    Very well said.

  21. #280
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    Default Re: Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    Be careful what you wish for.......as you apparently are not part of the poor class. You also have to ask yourself what "poor" really means. You also should be aware of the fiat system. It saved your butt based on "good will and faith".

    I may have to buy a squirrel rifle.
    Unsure if this applies to me (per my comment).
    I guess me.

    I came to the US with $100 in my pocket and worked for the minimum wage ($4.25 at the time).
    Put myself through college.
    Not, I am not poor anymore, but rather tax-paying middle class.
    Yes, I still grow my own potatoes, fruits and veggies. And do the bees also.

    Too often I see the poor buying potato chips and Pepsi at the gas station nearby - overpaying 10 times for the junk food (too lazy, or unwise, or both - to just buy the raw potatoes for pennies, peel them and boil them - cheap and good for you). Meanwhile our community garden is half-empty - dirt cheap for using it.
    To each his/her own.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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