Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    kinda was my point.. In this example its the same genetics run in modern hives (in the preserve set aside to keep these bees pure) and they need treatments.. natural slection/darwin/black box has failed
    Now that - who are we to definitely state if something has failed?
    OR succeeded?
    I am of the opinion that "black box" methods do work.
    No need to get hang over the internal mechanics and labels and definitions (which will be debated for as long as I am alive - so not gonna worry anymore).

    I think it is becoming more clear now, we should go back to the classroom and redo the entire "Darwinian evolution" demo.
    It was a fine demo and made a lot of sales.
    It just did not represent the real-life situation very well.
    Last edited by GregV; 10-21-2019 at 10:55 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    They have failed in the sense that we have not yet used them to generate a new strain of European bee with meaningful resistance to varroa, especially when compared with the degree of success reached by more conventional breeding techniques. Unfortunately, most of the "black box" approaches that have been used are like the one that started this article - poorly conceived, and conceived without an apparent full understanding of evolution. Its almost like evolution itself is a black box to half the people who propose these approaches...hint: drift, founder effects and gene flow are a thing, and often more power things than selection. If you "black box" doesn't use or control those factors, than your black box will not work.

    The fact that this approach has been almost entirely rejected by the rest of the microorganism/plant/animal breeding world should be taken as a hint by beekeepers that there are better ways...and yet, the idea persists amongst us for some reason.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by SuiGeneris View Post
    .... than your black box will not work....
    Then provide a reliable "white box" every agrees upon, with no more doubts and questions left.
    The last, the final, and no more research left to do.
    And do it fast.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Even more related (about "phenotypic plasticity"):
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4979717/
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Then provide a reliable "white box" every agrees upon, with no more doubts and questions left.
    The last, the final, and no more research left to do.
    And do it fast.
    That doesn't exist, as evolution is a thing, and varroa will inevitable evolve to counter anything we breed or build-in. But relying on outmoded, scientifically improbable methods is not the solution, and merely acts to waste resources and time. If black box solutions were going to work, they'd have worked already. They've been in-use with varroa resistance breeding programs for well over a decade...without meaningful success.

    At some point you have to accept that the idea has failed and move onto other options. And there are a lot out there that have shown success. VSH/russian breeding as two examples of moderate success via conventional animal husbandry. RNAi; either as a varroacidal treatment or as a GMO as another.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Then provide a reliable "white box" every agrees upon, with no more doubts and questions left.
    welp.... I would say settle for what has proven to work repeatably.
    IE

    [/U]
    "Selecting “blindly” for resistance, i.e., by using an approach that simply targets low mite infestations. This has already, however, been documented to be a viable breeding approach that has led to honey bees that now are used by both small-scale and commercial beekeepers with no or minimal acaricide input: Russian honey bees in the USA (Rinderer et al. 2010; de Guzman et al., 2007) and bees bred by John Kefuss in France (Büchler et al., 2010; Kefuss et al., 2004). Resistance in other untreated bees selected for survival may be functional but has not been documented with rigorous testing"
    Further research to determine the best IPM procedures to support the full expression of resistant phenotypes would move us more quickly toward ending reliance on acaricides.
    Robert G Danka, Thomas E Rinderer, Marla Spivak, and John Kefuss-2013 [U]Comments on: “Varroa destructor: research avenues
    towards sustainable control”
    The Mother of Minnesota Hygienic, The Father of Bond, The man who bought us the USDA "Russian" bees, and The Champion of VSH...
    when these people talk, perhaps we should pay attention.

    Sure the DBBB "could" work, you can't prove it wont, but it has many strikes against it..
    Beekeeping is a numbers game.. You can count cards... or bet it all on black.. and yes people win both ways every week, but who wins next week, or the week after?

    My issue is we don't have any DBBB success stories. Dr Blacquiere has been kicking this idea around in papers for years... lots of opion papers , no field trials. Now he is calling for small scale beekeepers to fund and try it.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    My issue is we don't have any DBBB success stories. Dr Blacquiere has been kicking this idea around in papers for years... lots of opion papers , no field trials. Now he is calling for small scale beekeepers to fund and try it.
    Treatment free/black box/hard Bond beekeeping has been sustainable, fun, low effort, and productive for me. I do seem to do quite a few things differently than other folks, and maybe I’ve just adjusted both my methods and expectations in order to make it work because I enjoy keeping bees, I don’t want to treat, and I believe that I am making a difference, albeit admittedly minuscule.
    David Matlock

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    .... Now he is calling for small scale beekeepers to fund and try it.
    Trying as we speak.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    GregV I am also toying with setting up a black box program. The cost is low. The hard part is finding a sufficiently remote location in my area.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Madsen View Post
    GregV I am also toying with setting up a black box program. The cost is low. The hard part is finding a sufficiently remote location in my area.
    The cost is stupid low, indeed.
    Once I finally have enough equipment built-up to manage 20 unit program - it will be much less busy too (hopefully for the next season).
    All equipment is from the free, dumpster-grade materials.
    The bees are next to free.
    Some tools and hardware are needed - not too bad.
    It is just the time.

    I could not afford to buy me a farmstead.
    But I can handily afford to run some bees on a shoe string.

    I am in the suburb to country transitional area with lots of forests/parks/preserves embedded.
    Not truly remote, but not congested either (no commercial yards).
    So be it.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    Treatment free/black box/hard Bond beekeeping has been
    Bond as outlined by Kefuss is incompatibly with DBBB as outlined by Blacquiere.

    Bond is selective breeding by mite counts using breeder queens and re queening the bottom 80% or so. The hope is they turn around and perform better and throw better drones

    DBBB is allowing every queen that will live to live.

    Most of the time when people say they are going bond, they forget all the selection, grafting, requeening etc and realm mean something closer to DBBB, and I woud argue spliting what lives has been the down fall of many atempts

    GregV I am also toying with setting up a black box program. The cost is low
    its not.... thats a lot of bees to by
    rember the protocol is
    The DBBB program can be started in spring with a population of 25–30 genetically diverse local colonies (from different beekeepers) from one region. This enables ample variation and conserves local/regional adaptation in the population
    You don't DBBB a bunch of your muts you have split out from a swarm or 2 you have caught, you seek out a viraiaty of locally adapted stocks, insuring you have a good starting place

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Darwinian black box selection for resistance Varroa destructor

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    Bond as outlined by Kefuss is incompatibly with DBBB as outlined by Blacquiere.

    Bond is selective breeding by mite counts using breeder queens and re queening the bottom 80% or so. The hope is they turn around and perform better and throw better drones

    DBBB is allowing every queen that will live to live.

    Most of the time when people say they are going bond, they forget all the selection, grafting, requeening etc and realm mean something closer to DBBB, and I woud argue spliting what lives has been the down fall of many atempts


    its not.... thats a lot of bees to by
    rember the protocol is

    You don't DBBB a bunch of your muts you have split out from a swarm or 2 you have caught, you seek out a viraiaty of locally adapted stocks, insuring you have a good starting place
    I mean, I don't care to be an "official participant" in anything (gotta kids to feed, not to play popular science games).
    I got promising feral stocks from outside, do the hard Bond/Darwinian/Mad Splitter "whatever", and call it done.

    It is no secret - I let them die and this is how I prefer to get my harvest (been discussed).
    People get hung up in endless arguments over semantics, "who-is-right", mite counting, and definitions - I just keep bees chem-free and move one.
    Don't really care.
    Bees are food and chems don't belong in food - simple enough and all it is to it.
    Last edited by GregV; 10-23-2019 at 09:24 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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