Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding). - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Butler Co, Missouri, USA
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    I have found when using jar feeders with holes poked in the lids, hole size can make a huge difference in syrup use. Larger holes allow for faster consumption and it gets stored. Smaller holes slow consumption and more gets used for feeding brood.

    I had to check for propolis in the holes I'd poked in the jar lids every fill up.

    Hey kilo, I always thought the number of hfcs designated the percent of sugar content that was fructose, not total sugar percentage. I though hfcs 55 was 78% sugar, but 55% of it was fructose with the rest mostly glucose.
    Hindsight is 20/10, not 20/20...
    After the fact, I always know what didn't work.

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  3. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by LAlldredge View Post
    So the question is- how different are these numbers for someone wintering outdoors?
    Well, consider - my typical indoor relative humidity in winter is 30-40% (similar to Ian's controlled shed).
    This is "terribly dry".
    At the same exact time, the outdoor humidity can be 70-80% as in "terribly humid" (with all the resulting effects).
    See that?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
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    Northeast PA
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    I was able to get Hive A to consume an extra gallon of syrup, which, for that hive, is probably equivalent to 2 pounds.

    In addition, I added 2 full frames of honey.

    In the brief period I was in the hive, I noticed uncapped brood.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
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    Geauga, Ohio
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    453

    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    <<<<
    Long story short, I'm feeding hive A, and Hive B. Both are about 10lbs underweight. Using 1/2 gallon feeders, one right after another, without more than a couple of hours between refills. 2:1 syrup.
    Hive A has gained 8lbs after roughly 3 gallons of feed. Hive B has gained 8lbs after 1 gallon of feed.
    WTF is going on here? No, the feeders aren't leaking. I'm losing my patience (and losing warm weather). >>>>

    Huh, not gaining weight despite feed going away - a gallon of 2:1 feed is about 8 lbs...
    1) robbing (covered already)...
    2) just leaking out. Ruled out...
    3) no way they are eliminating it as waste as fast as they are taking it!!!! If they are using the sugar syrup to feed brood, then.... the hive will still gain weight. Brood are made of lots of water! But perhaps... not as much weight if they are still feeding brood. So this may be playing a role. So, feed 16 lbs (2 gallons), gain 8 lbs... just guessing here.
    4) losing bees, as in, winter bees were dying off. Perhaps hive A lost winter bees after hive B already did. It does not cost the bees a lot to check the cluster size; this is the point where PA (and OH) are at only winter bees; summer bees have died off. Worth noting/comparing cluster size.

    Just a though - I wonder if hive A swarmed late, and are still building up? A younger queen will push broodrearing later than an older queen. And keep summer bees longer.

    At any rate, it's all about having enough stores for winter, right? some thoughts below...

    I have found that the ratio of honey to bees is more important that weight for gauging whether I'm in the green or the red for honey stores. So, if a deep has only 5 frames covered with bees, then they should have 5 additional frames with honey beyond what is covered. For NE OH overwintering, to calibrate. That's just an example - and we know that strong 5 frame nucs with 2 stories (10 total frames) do fine for overwintering.

    Not that the OP has only 5 frames covered with bees!!!! just using numbers to anchor things.

    So, if I am below the number of honey frames I want, I will put on a block of sugar - like, 10 lbs at a time - on a box with a mesh screen bottom, big enough holes the bees can climb up. Lots of ways to make the block - https://www.honeybeesuite.com/no-coo...g-winter-bees/ - for a recipe.

    Every winter is a bit of a leap of faith for me. ;/ but so far, with overwintering deeps, long hives/top bar hives, and Dadant extra-deep frame hives, that principle of the ratio of 1 part bees: 1 part honey frames has held true.
    Last edited by trishbookworm; 10-16-2019 at 10:57 AM.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Cedar City, Utah
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    42

    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    Hive A has gained 8lbs after roughly 3 gallons of feed. Hive B has gained 8lbs after 1 gallon of feed.
    Feeding syrup stimulates egg-laying. That increased brood production means the colony needs, and consumes, more feed.
    A cold bee smoker is bad for the soul.

  7. #46
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by trishbookworm View Post
    ....Dadant extra-deep frame hives...
    Trish,
    Care to share few pics and notes on your current Dadants?
    In the "Horizontal hive" area be great.
    Thanks!

    PS: I still have a full box of Dadant frames unused - still flip-flopping;
    (converted 10 into my own format for testing - they work fine - but every little thing takes time).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #47
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    We are seeing at least a factor of two difference in weight gain between hive on old comb, and hives on decontaminated comb. I would suspect pesticide build up in the beeswax.

    Crazy Roland

  9. #48
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Roland,
    Could you elaborate on old comb? Do you see a difference in where hive is placed? heavy ag or suburbs?
    When do you call a comb old?
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  10. #49
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Old is anything more than one season in use.

    Ag area and urban the same. Shotgun brood in old comb both places. 2-4d seems to be the major culprit in urban areas.

    It is not one event that causes problems, it is the overall "area under the curve" form calculus.

    Crazy Roland

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Thanks for your effort to respond.

    All keeping is local. If I turned comb over that fast I would have no comb. Thankfully it does not seem like I have to. Good to keep in the memory bank though, I would not have looked at the comb as a problem.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  12. #51
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    Dec 2017
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    I don't see old comb being a problem here.
    Not significant anyway.
    Suburban lawns represent no good pastures and not attractive (exactly due to 2-4d).

    Whatever I dont harvest by C&S will go right back in.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #52
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    Dec 2010
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    Ojai, California
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    2,628

    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bdfarmer555 View Post
    ...
    Hey kilo, I always thought the number of hfcs designated the percent of sugar content that was fructose, not total sugar percentage. I though hfcs 55 was 78% sugar, but 55% of it was fructose with the rest mostly glucose.
    All I know about the stuff is that the schedule 77, combined with HBH, is what puts weight on the hives. They just sort of burn through the schedule 55 corn syrup, they make it, but they are not moving forward toward Winter preparation. I never had lots of huge colonies until I fed BOTH Megabee patties and BeeSweet with HBH. A few went big, but not most of my colonies. My average colony populations maxed out in early summer above 3 standard brood boxes with brood in them, often 24 standard 9-1/8" deep frames of brood with usually 8 frames in the bottom and middle boxes solid brood, nothing else.

    Megabee and BeeSweet in combination with top-notch localized queens is a good formula.

    Looks like Roland may have your answer. I'll tuck that into my hat for next season and keep the combs fresh. Thank you, Roland!

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Another observation, I would guess that a spring pesticide synergizes with a fall oesticide. It appears best to rotate all comb that was present before the Solstice out before early September.

    Crazy Roland

  15. #54
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    Apr 2019
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    All I know about the stuff is that the schedule 77, combined with HBH, is what puts weight on the hives. They just sort of burn through the schedule 55 corn syrup, they make it, but they are not moving forward toward Winter preparation. I never had lots of huge colonies until I fed BOTH Megabee patties and BeeSweet with HBH. A few went big, but not most of my colonies. My average colony populations maxed out in early summer above 3 standard brood boxes with brood in them, often 24 standard 9-1/8" deep frames of brood with usually 8 frames in the bottom and middle boxes solid brood, nothing else.

    Megabee and BeeSweet in combination with top-notch localized queens is a good formula.

    Looks like Roland may have your answer. I'll tuck that into my hat for next season and keep the combs fresh. Thank you, Roland!
    Getting back on topic here:

    do you or any other member here have a link or website or somewhere I could look at prices for schedule 77 Corn syrup??

  16. #55
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    Aug 2018
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    Sisters, Oregon
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    Getting back on topic here:

    do you or any other member here have a link or website or somewhere I could look at prices for schedule 77 Corn syrup??
    From what I've read schedule 77 is the combination of solids within the mix. Here is part of an article from Randy Oliver's website-
    Update March 2, 2013

    There has been quite a bit of additional research since I wrote this article (some as yet unpublished, much anecdotal). My take is that bees may benefit from having at least part of the sucrose in syrup being inverted into glucose and fructose (HFCS is also a source of these simple sugars). As best I can tell, colonies put on weight faster, and winter better on inverted syrup. In a recent (yet unpublished) study by Dr. Brian Johnson at U.C. Davis, package colonies on new foundation were fed either sucrose syrup or Mann Lakeís ProSweet (50:50 sucrose:HFCS). The colonies grew better on the ProSweet. Anecdotally, a number of good beekeepers who donít have access to HFCS have told me that they get more bang for the buck by inverting sucrose syrup by heating with a bit of organic acid (citric, oxalic).

    Here is the link to ProSweet from MannLake for purchase- if you look at the composition it's 76-77% solids.
    https://www.mannlakeltd.com/pro-swee...n-18-92-l-pail
    I'm smart but at the end of the day I'm still the help.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by LAlldredge View Post
    From what I've read schedule 77 is the combination of solids within the mix. Here is part of an article from Randy Oliver's website-
    Update March 2, 2013

    There has been quite a bit of additional research since I wrote this article (some as yet unpublished, much anecdotal). My take is that bees may benefit from having at least part of the sucrose in syrup being inverted into glucose and fructose (HFCS is also a source of these simple sugars). As best I can tell, colonies put on weight faster, and winter better on inverted syrup. In a recent (yet unpublished) study by Dr. Brian Johnson at U.C. Davis, package colonies on new foundation were fed either sucrose syrup or Mann Lakeís ProSweet (50:50 sucrose:HFCS). The colonies grew better on the ProSweet. Anecdotally, a number of good beekeepers who donít have access to HFCS have told me that they get more bang for the buck by inverting sucrose syrup by heating with a bit of organic acid (citric, oxalic).

    Here is the link to ProSweet from MannLake for purchase- if you look at the composition it's 76-77% solids.
    https://www.mannlakeltd.com/pro-swee...n-18-92-l-pail
    I refuse to pay that mark up on pro-sweet.

    Where can I purchase schedule 77 HFCS in bulk outside of Mann Lake?

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    I refuse to pay that mark up on pro-sweet.

    Where can I purchase schedule 77 HFCS in bulk outside of Mann Lake?
    Don't know. The difficult truth about your situation is- you're running out of time. (And may be out of time already for liquid feed) Yes, the price point is ugly. They run sales during the summer and that's when I bought mine (for future reference) I'm VERY budget minded but I will buy this as the foundation of my fall feeding. My no comprise list in the fall 1) mite control 2) feed 3) HVAC moisture control.
    I'm smart but at the end of the day I'm still the help.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by LAlldredge View Post
    Don't know. The difficult truth about your situation is- you're running out of time. (And may be out of time already for liquid feed) Yes, the price point is ugly. They run sales during the summer and that's when I bought mine (for future reference) I'm VERY budget minded but I will buy this as the foundation of my fall feeding. My no comprise list in the fall 1) mite control 2) feed 3) HVAC moisture control.
    I'm mostly referring to next year.

    Most of the hives....slowly...gained the weight they needed with 2:1 syrup this year.

  20. #59
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    I refuse to pay that mark up on pro-sweet.

    Where can I purchase schedule 77 HFCS in bulk outside of Mann Lake?
    try here info is dated was current in 2009
    Sweeteners plus 585-346-2318 ask for Mark
    sells liquid sucrose 67.5 brix in 55 gal barrel, must call 2 days in advance.
    1.5 hrs from syracuse 7/31 price .2830 lb dry weight with own barrels
    appx $175 a barrel about 600 lbs in a barrel.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Why the heck won't they gain weight (after ALOT of feeding).

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    I'm mostly referring to next year.

    Most of the hives....slowly...gained the weight they needed with 2:1 syrup this year.
    That's so good! Really happy they got up to weight. Those 5 gallon pails go on sale for around $50 which includes shipping if you hit $100. They weigh around 70 pounds. My plan is to put a couple gallons each and fill out the rest with 2:1. The quality is obvious.
    I'm smart but at the end of the day I'm still the help.

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