Tilting the telescoping cover
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  1. #1
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    Default Tilting the telescoping cover

    I always rest my telescoping cover on top of the inner cover so that it slants backwards.
    Someone told me to do it during the Winter so any moisture collects and runs to the back of the hive before it drips.
    Using an inner cover with the oval hole in the center, does the telescoping cover tilt really make any difference? I imagine that humidity collects most evenly on the inner cover, but maybe not. ::hrug:::

    Your thoughts?
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    The question is what to do, and the answer, as always, is complicated by a muddle of reason, emotion, and doubt.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    And why did my perfect picture show up on its side?
    The question is what to do, and the answer, as always, is complicated by a muddle of reason, emotion, and doubt.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackam View Post
    I always rest my telescoping cover on top of the inner cover so that it slants backwards.
    Someone told me to do it during the Winter so any moisture collects and runs to the back of the hive before it drips.
    Using an inner cover with the oval hole in the center, does the telescoping cover tilt really make any difference? I imagine that humidity collects most evenly on the inner cover, but maybe not. ::hrug:::

    Your thoughts?
    Hmm take advice from a different somebody. If there is Bee space on each side of the telescope cover and an hole in the Inner cover you have a robbing portal.
    If there is a hole in the inner cover , all heat will find its way out, chimney effect.
    If there is no hole and room around the telescoping cover the heat will only have the inner cover holding it in. Wind could blow it off. Rain could blow in.

    So 10 people will give you 14 opinions, but here is mine. Do not let the outer cover have condensation on it at all. then no drips. now the interesting part. "When the top is more insulated" than the sides of the hive, the coolest spot for the condensation to form is the sides, runs down and not on the cluster. so put a couple inch piece of Styrofoam under the top cover to "well" insulate it and it will not drip on the bees then either. Can either treat the symptom, or remove the cause.
    GG

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    The need for a tilted (askew) telescoping cover relates to winterizing a hive for northern climates. The UofMinnesota teaches the placement of bildrite over the innercover, and the telescoping cover is tilted (place a stick on either end over the bildrite) so that the entire surface of the bildrite is exposed so that evaporation can occur from the four (4) sides of the bildrite, and the entire top surface. Bildrite is a fiberous construction material that will absorb moisture from inside the hive, and allow for evaporation to the outside to eliminate the potential for harm caused by buildup of ice or moisture.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    I looked at the picture and Harry V's phrase of cockamamie monkey motions came to mind. GG has provided sound advice that works no matter where you are located. All that changes is how much top insulation you provide.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    "When the top is more insulated" than the sides of the hive, the coolest spot for the condensation to form is the sides, runs down and not on the cluster. so put a couple inch piece of Styrofoam under the top cover to "well" insulate it and it will not drip on the bees then either.
    GG
    That is what I do. I have never met anyone else who does it so I thought I must have invented that idea! Now I know other people far more knowledgeable about beekeeping than I am think it is a good idea too.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    To be clear -
    Styrofaom on top of the inner cover (or nix the inner cover through the winter months?)
    The question is what to do, and the answer, as always, is complicated by a muddle of reason, emotion, and doubt.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    I am in the South, so I use 5/8" insulation inside the telescoping top. Further north you may want to use up to 2". These thicker pieces can be placed on the outside and held down with a brick. If you put it inside the hive, it needs to be protected from the bees as they will chew on it.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    In upstate New York I put the insulating board on top of the outer cover as well.
    Cut it a little longer to overhang the entrance to try to keep the snow from
    blocking.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    Saw an interesting version at our last bee cub meeting. Lady screened the hole in the inner cover and puts a 4 inch piece of Styrofoam on top of the inner cover. She had a 1 inch round hole in the center of the styrofoam that serves as a moisture "chimney". Above the inner cover she uses a Vivaldi board/box with burlap in it.

    She also had a small notch in lower lip of inner cover and used an exterior insulated plastic sleeve around perimeter of hive.
    Zone 3b. If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    We put a 1/2-3/4 inch piece of insulating board and then under that a piece of the covered bubble wrap, under the lid. Like what you wrap a water heater with.
    Works great, here, we have never had a wet hive during the winter.

    I remove as soon as spring hits ow those tiny black ants make a home under the insulating board.
    Zone 6b: 27 hives in Maryland, Carniolan, Italian mix mutts: Still learning - started bees spring of 2014.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    3" plus of expanded polystyrene placed on top of the Crown Board (Inner Cover) all year round, inside a feeder shell. Excess moisture condenses on uninsulated walls and exits the hive via an Open Mesh Floor: http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek02.htm

    That set-up works a treat (at this location).
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    Quote Originally Posted by JTGaraas View Post
    The need for a tilted (askew) telescoping cover relates to winterizing a hive for northern climates. The UofMinnesota teaches the placement of bildrite over the innercover, and the telescoping cover is tilted (place a stick on either end over the bildrite) so that the entire surface of the bildrite is exposed so that evaporation can occur from the four (4) sides of the bildrite, and the entire top surface. Bildrite is a fiberous construction material that will absorb moisture from inside the hive, and allow for evaporation to the outside to eliminate the potential for harm caused by buildup of ice or moisture.
    the picture provided,, would cause me concern,, over a driving rain/sleet from the "up end" of the outer cover, if said material is "absorbing of moisture" It could IMO be saturated after the rain and then drip on the bees, as it is level. If a tilted is "needed" I guess I would build one that has a slanted roof. I am in Northern Mich and I have never seen nor heard of "Lid Askew" I use a thicker Rim to accommodate the 2 inch foam.
    Ideally the rim covers the crack between the hive body and inner cover and foam cracks for wind protection. I would advise use what works for you. For me "lid askew" is illogical. IF I would determine i need more ventilation I would just build a "ventilated outer cover"
    I am sure there are many ways to do this but for me I like a well protected, well insulated, Top. And try to drive the condensation to the side walls where it runs down the wall as apposed to dripping on the bees. letting heat out would also let cold or absence of heat in, so then the condensation would increase and you have a chimney effect for the needed heat. I guess to boil it down, I do not see this as a pluming problem, I see it as a HVAC problem. I should start a thread on winter moisture. I feel it is not well understood. Food for thought, "where do the water hauling bees get the water from during dec, jan, and feb, to mix with honey to make feed for the early brood build up and just water supply." Bees are not camels they do not "go thirsty" for 3 months. So we have to understand there is a balance. Some water droplets in the hive may be needed. Water dripping on the bees is bad. Best answer IMO is water droplets on the sides of the hive, None over head. Dry and have access to water. now this changes as the location changes. I have opened bees in winter and seen 2 inches of ICE on the sides of the hive, they wintered fine. the "where" is the important thing about winter condensation, IMO for the place I winter bees.
    GG

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    Gray Goose - you overlook the existence of the askew telescoping cover protecting against rain. The fiberous material is completely protected by the telescoping cover, and the tiny distance between the top of the flat fiberous material and the bottom of the telescoping cover made askew (not flat, in a crooked condition) can be as little as inch on one end (caused by a single spacing object like a stick) to zero inches on the other end of the telescoping cover. This resulting triangular space above the flat fiberous material allows for evaporation from five (5) surfaces - all protected from rain by the telescoping cover as to all six (6) surfaces. The fiberous material aides in the elimination of interior humidity. The hives’s outward appearance is identical to the appearance of your hive in Michigan except my hive has a telescoping cover that is inch higher on one end - and it matters not which way it is tilted (right, left, back, or possibly front). Here is a link to the UofMinn brochure. https://www.beelab.umn.edu/sites/bee...poster_163.pdf

    The tiny separation does not increase the likelihood of wind catching the lid; I always use straps anyway. The brown bildrite can be seen, along with telescoping cover, now askew.
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    Last edited by JTGaraas; 10-05-2019 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Incorrect number of surfaces allowing for evaporation.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    Quote Originally Posted by JTGaraas View Post
    Gray Goose - you overlook the existence of the askew telescoping cover protecting against rain. The fiberous material is completely protected by the telescoping cover, and the tiny distance between the top of the flat fiberous material and the bottom of the telescoping cover made askew (not flat, in a crooked condition) can be as little as inch on one end (caused by a single spacing object like a stick) to zero inches on the other end of the telescoping cover. This resulting triangular space above the flat fiberous material allows for evaporation from five (5) surfaces - all protected from rain by the telescoping cover as to all six (6) surfaces. The fiberous material aides in the elimination of interior humidity. The hives’s outward appearance is identical to the appearance of your hive in Michigan except my hive has a telescoping cover that is inch higher on one end - and it matters not which way it is tilted (right, left, back, or possibly front). Here is a link to the UofMinn brochure. https://www.beelab.umn.edu/sites/bee...poster_163.pdf

    The tiny separation does not increase the likelihood of wind catching the lid; I always use straps anyway. The brown bildrite can be seen, along with telescoping cover, now askew.
    JTGarass My comment specifically related to the picture in the first Post from Jackam yes the way you describe is another "way" Not sure how much "evaporation from 5 sides" happens at -5 F but I would think some comes out, as winter air is dry.
    GG

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    this turns into a rant quickly but maybe the choose of words used to describe something resonates well with some of you and encourages an internal investigation. i understand the irony with this statement and attempting to offend most people, 3 crudely constructed sentences later.

    it is a shame there are many adopted wintering methods which cause unnecessary stress to the colony. at the end of the day, these dumb ideas jeopardize the health of the colony, cost additional money, space and time to implement. but yet, it has become common knowledge because the football watching, cigarette smoking, tattoo displaying, mouth-breathers downvote science off the internet.

    when one has an upper entrance it will exchange air quicker than a single, reduced lower entrance. there will be a minor vacuum which forms and the precious heat (warmer air holds more moisture) the bees produce is exchanged for cooler ambient air; warm, high pressure air will exit the top and draw in cooler, ambient air from down below(this is bad/undesirable and manifests in stress to the colony). we would normally want this nice warm bubble to be around the cluster but when the air is exchanged via these irrational wintering ideas adopted by many, this temperature gradient (bubble of warm air around cluster) becomes very thin and puts it in closer contact with cold air where it can fall out of solution in the form of condensation. the cluster has to work harder to maintain(consume more food to keep up with energy requirement...stress) an active temperature which permits movement to food. how are colonies dying with surplus food?

    wintering is trivial...the goal is to trap and preserve the warm air as long as possible; reduce hive volume and entrance, insulate the top well and make sure hives bodies are sealed. as others have pointed out, the warm air will eventually make contact with a cooler, less insulated surface and fall out of solution away from the cluster; a non issue. yet people continue to buy unnecessary woodenware, waste money and time for a problem they create because they could not be bother to pause and think or establish a sound scientific foundation earlier in life. so now they feel uncomfortable and instead of trying to fix their scientific foundation, so moving forward their decisions can become more rational, they choose to exercise their freedom to downvote and the sheep soon follow.

    peace and long life!

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    Quote Originally Posted by logicallycompromised View Post
    this turns into a rant quickly but maybe the choose of words used to describe something resonates well with some of you and encourages an internal investigation. i understand the irony with this statement and attempting to offend most people, 3 crudely constructed sentences later.

    it is a shame there are many adopted wintering methods which cause unnecessary stress to the colony. at the end of the day, these dumb ideas jeopardize the health of the colony, cost additional money, space and time to implement. but yet, it has become common knowledge because the football watching, cigarette smoking, tattoo displaying, mouth-breathers downvote science off the internet.

    when one has an upper entrance it will exchange air quicker than a single, reduced lower entrance. there will be a minor vacuum which forms and the precious heat (warmer air holds more moisture) the bees produce is exchanged for cooler ambient air; warm, high pressure air will exit the top and draw in cooler, ambient air from down below(this is bad/undesirable and manifests in stress to the colony). we would normally want this nice warm bubble to be around the cluster but when the air is exchanged via these irrational wintering ideas adopted by many, this temperature gradient (bubble of warm air around cluster) becomes very thin and puts it in closer contact with cold air where it can fall out of solution in the form of condensation. the cluster has to work harder to maintain(consume more food to keep up with energy requirement...stress) an active temperature which permits movement to food. how are colonies dying with surplus food?

    wintering is trivial...the goal is to trap and preserve the warm air as long as possible; reduce hive volume and entrance, insulate the top well and make sure hives bodies are sealed. as others have pointed out, the warm air will eventually make contact with a cooler, less insulated surface and fall out of solution away from the cluster; a non issue. yet people continue to buy unnecessary woodenware, waste money and time for a problem they create because they could not be bother to pause and think or establish a sound scientific foundation earlier in life. so now they feel uncomfortable and instead of trying to fix their scientific foundation, so moving forward their decisions can become more rational, they choose to exercise their freedom to downvote and the sheep soon follow.

    peace and long life!
    hmmm, I could not follow all that. I lost you at "warm, High pressure Air" And BTW I smoke Cigars. I would offer comment or feedback, but i'm not sure if the dumb Idea you mentioned is the tilted lid, or not using the tilted lid. well ok then, of to the tattoo parler
    And that is bill breather, but I get the idea.
    Gray Goose

  19. #18
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    Default

    I find a twig about 1/4 inch diameter, break a piece an inch long or so. That I place on the outer frame of the inner cover so that the telescoping cover will be raised ever so slightly.
    Year round.
    The only winterizing we do here is reduce the entrance.
    No problems.
    BTW, I'm in Colorado so our winters are not as severe as Upstate New York or Minnesota. Thank goodness

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    GG, I think I got most of what lc was saying in a not so eloquent manner. Basically, it is the old argument for or against ventilation to remove moisture during the winter via an upper vent. Lc appears to be in favor of sealing the box up but providing increased top insulation. Somewhere along the way, lc forgot how much more energy it takes to heat moist air vs dry air and how thermally conductive moist air is. Not a concern for me here where our temps rarely hit the single digits.

    I've never seen a goose that smokes cigars and has a tattoo. It has always been one or the other. Selfie?
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Tilting the telescoping cover

    You guys did better than me - I couldn't make head n'tail of that post. Although I'm a firm advocate of sealed tops and bottom entrances myself, I'm also a great believer in people doing whatever has been proven to work for them.

    Re: heating inside the hive - what I've noticed when removing the pad of insulation in order to feed sugar syrup at this time of the year, is that significant heat can be felt on the Crown Board (Inner Cover) from the activity taking place below it. This heat is very similar to that felt during Spring as the colony begins to brood-up, where again I sometimes remove the insulation in order to supply syrup to any colony at risk of starvation.
    But - during the height of Winter when I sometimes lift-off the insulation for a few seconds to check and/or replace the jars of fondant I give them (which act as 'fuel gauges') - I've often noticed that there's a complete absence of any detectable warmth. This must surely be down to the colony being tightly clustered, and thus providing it's own 'more localised' insulation.

    Because of the absence of any detectable heat above the cluster at such times, it seems to me that during the Winter period itself, it matters not one iota whether the direction from which moisture can escape is via the top OR via the bottom.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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