Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    What is wrong with it is that over time you will populate your apiary with the swarmiest of bees.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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  3. #42
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    Warren County, NJ, USA
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    ^^^

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Jones, Henry A radical cure for swarming habit of bees
    That was an interesting read.

    I wonder if the underlying reason this technique worked for him would be the resulting imbalance of bee age groups within the hive during the prime swarm period. In a couple weeks there would be a sizable shift in population commonly found during spring build up and the swarm period, from a majority of young bees to older bees and foragers.

    Could there be other ways to achieve the same results without destroying all the worker brood?
    To everything there is a season....

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    That was an interesting read.

    I wonder if the underlying reason this technique worked for him would be the resulting imbalance of bee age groups within the hive during the prime swarm period. In a couple weeks there would be a sizable shift in population commonly found during spring build up and the swarm period, from a majority of young bees to older bees and foragers.

    Could there be other ways to achieve the same results without destroying all the worker brood?
    that radical cure is quite labor intensive.
    other way: formic stops the queens from laying for a few days. same imbalance of population. i do MAQS treatment when drones start emerging. no swarms this year. but i have also been promoting my strongest hives to make swarm preps for the past several years. the ones that dont are the ones i graft from. the ones that do make preps are halted by moving that queen into a weak hive and turning the colony into a cell builder after cutting down swarm cells.

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    That was an interesting read.

    Could there be other ways to achieve the same results without destroying all the worker brood?
    Agree with CR. That would be an incredibly labor intensive operation.

    Why wouldn't you just pinch your queen?

  7. #46
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Anyone brave enough to try it. Would be interesting to see what colony conditions are at two and four weeks after compared to control hives given different treatments (or none) It obviously changes demographics. A kicked around figure is to take swarm precautions when there is 6 frames of mostly capped brood. He suggests leaving 2 frames of capped unmolested. I have to go through a similar frame sort when setting up for a Snelgrove separation. Shaking frames etc to judge contents and shake the queen to the desired box. I dont think it would take much longer to rake the cappings on 4 frames of brood.

    I commonly savage capped honey in top corners of frames to get the bees to empty them for the queen to lay. With Jones solution that would not be necessary.

    It sounds so wild at first consideration that dismissing it would be easy. Maybe it has merit comparable to pinching queens.
    Frank

  8. #47
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    Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Dead on good advice, Nancy. I’ve used WW, particularly the later years of his work, since 2015. No swarms, good honey production, queen supercedure after the flow if they choose, etc. I typically run only 12-15 backyard hives for honey production, the others are horizontal hives (another story), and harvest about 1000# of honey each July since 2016. Unless Matt Davey’s method yields an improvement, This works for me. Thanks for the tip!

  9. #48

    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    In my opinion hives decide to swarm long before they show signs. I can not claim to be super experienced but my plan is to make sure they have extra space during the winter dearth. I am in Florida so heat retention is not as much an issue. Even in colder areas bees can handle the extra space. Don't think of it like heating your house. They heat the comb around the ball of bees, not the whole hive. They live in trees with huge spaces and wide open doors in the winter and do just fine. I also agree that this isn't a sign of bad genetics. Bad genetics are bees that can't handle varroa and other issues without chemicals or bees that are overly protective (mean).

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    What is wrong with it is that over time you will populate your apiary with the swarmiest of bees.
    You just combine them back and let them young queens to hash it all out.
    Get fewer and stronger units too, if no need for too many bees.
    The summer and the swarms will eventually end.


    Too many queens and bees is a good problem too have.
    Easy to fix and many ways to play with.
    But not the other way around.

    BTW, the OP never specified (unless I missed that) the management situation anyway.
    He/she could be just as well running the all units as single Lang deeps (you know - all those former swarms).
    Kind of an important detail.
    They outgrow small hives in a matter of a month and swarm again - just normal.
    Last edited by GregV; 10-02-2019 at 07:25 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #50
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    Tehachapi, California, USA
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    First of all, swarming is normal. It's the colony's way of reproducing. Allowing colonies to swarm is irresponsible. Field bees spread varroa destructor, deseases and Africanized bees. This is how it's spread. Swarm Control is covered in the following link. http://www.uoguelph.ca/honeybee/videos.shtml

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    The 2nd from the last is a good video on controlling swarming along with some other stuff I prepared for our bee club.
    1. The Life Cycle of The Honey Bee Queen. DIY Gardening & Better Living (3:02 Min.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94NpquPswZw
    2. Honey Bee Behavior Observations Queen, Worker, Drone, Hygienic, Egg, Larvae, Pollen. Frederick Dunn (7:33 Min.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Blqi5qcGlE
    3. How to tell fast if virgin queen is mated yet. Barnyard Bees. (8:12 Min.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XynZm9iNT_Y&t=1s
    4. Where is the queen? Listen closely and you will find her. Barnyard Bees. (8:34 Min.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS1NcgIHREw
    5. How the bees behave when they don't accept a new queen bee. Zaur Man. (3:43 Min.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQJ8bJj1XIs
    6. How bees behave when they accept a new queen bee. Zaur Man. (5:06 Min.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YTFV7B0b6k
    7. Queen laying eggs. Barnyard Bees (3:52 Min.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a59XHYb0l3U
    8. How to stop your hive from swarming. Little Bits Honey Bees Joe May. (24:33 Min.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtH6AQ_6JLE
    9. Park Talley - Killing a Hot Bee Hive. (6:19 Min.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38VG_9S5ISU

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Quote Originally Posted by TehachapiGal View Post
    First of all, swarming is normal. ....
    Indeed, Gal!
    Hahaha...
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #53
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    Default

    Here is the link to the OSBN method (Opening the Sides of the Brood Nest):
    http://daveybees.wikidot.com/openingthesides

    Essentually it's about maintaining Wax Making during Swarm Season from 3 weeks before it starts.

    This is done by ensuring 2 frames of Partial or Full Sheets of Foundation are available in Brood Boxes throughout Swarm Season.

    A Partial Sheet of Foundation is used to trigger Wax making because it crates a hole in the Brood Nest, which the bees will want to fill with comb.

    The new frames are placed on the outside edge of the Brood Nest (not the Brood Box). Outside frames are moved to the middle of a new box, above the Brood Nest.

  15. #54

    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Gal et al

    I only keep "field" bees because of their resistance to varroa and other diseases. The main cause of Varroa becoming such a problem is when we (humans) treat a hive it doesn't kill all the Varroa. The ones that survive are the stronger ones which make stronger babies and so on... and so on. It's nothing unique in nature. Parasites will always exist naturally and coexists with their host without wiping them out. That is until humans try to control them (poorly). It all starts with the egg that is selected to be a queen. There is a reason bees pick a certain egg to make a queen. We "humans" think it's OK to go grab any egg, willy nilly, and make a queen. this creates weak queens that make weak bees. As soon as someone tell me they are grafting queens, i write them off as a contributor to the problem.

    Sorry to go off topic on this thread. I'm not a tree huger/duck scrubber, but feral bees and survival of the fittest are the way to correct the woes of bees. Commercial bees will eventually succumb to man made issues and diseases. "field" bees are significantly more robust.

  16. #55
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    Mar 2015
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    Tehachapi, California, USA
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Thank you for posting. George Imire discussed how to avert swarming along the same lines. I totally forgot until reading your method.
    http://pinkpages.chrisbacherconsulting.com/
    1999
    March - How Good Is Your Swarming Knowledge?

    I apologize for being cranky about swarming. I live in central California along a freeway where commercial bee semis come through in caravans in late January on their way to the almond groves to in and around Bakersfield and up to Northern Californa. The bees are fed early and ready to meet the AG requirements for having 8 full frame of brood in each box. The semis are covered but some manage to swarm at the local truck stops. Some of those swarms are Africanized and us local beekeepers end up with hot hives. We've euthanized 2 hives in the last few years because of the liability of having aggressive hives. Our pets, neighbors, horses, people working on the well were all getting buzzed and stung outside.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  17. #56
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    Hot Springs, AR, USA
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunzow View Post
    As an alternate option, you could just let them swarm and catch the swarms. Lazutin "Keeping Bees with a Smile"
    I did something like that this spring, I let ( allowed, didn't stop) a colony swarm, then caught the swarm, found the queen and caged her, put a piece of newspaper on top of the hive, then a honey box (drawn comb) , dumped the swarm(without queen) in the honey box and let them combine on their own. That hive did not swarm again and I got a good amount of honey from it.

  18. #57

    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    It is easier to sell bad news than good news and the media likes to sell news. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I don't believe most of what I hear on Network news channels. Below is a poor quality recording of a great talk this year by Davis Peck. I also enclosed the paper he references by Thomas Seeley. I know many bee keepers that haul their bees to California for the Almond harvest. I laugh at them when they complain about Varroa and let them know what they do exacerbates the problem. These swarms at truck stops are also not feral bees but the same commercially weak bees. I would never kill a swarm of bees, but I also would never throw them in one of my hives. They are weak man made bees. Catching swarms is a crap shoot and you can never know their origin. That's why I allow and promote survival of the fittest. If a hive dies, be it from Varroa or any of the many other issue, it was weak and had poor genetics. I hope you will watch the video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs16wQljdpQ

    https://www.apidologie.org/articles/...7/01/m6063.pdf

  19. #58
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    Dec 2015
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    Queensland, Australia
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    [QUOTE=AHudd;1757763]SWARMING
    ITS CONTROL AND PREVENTION by L. E. Snelgrove. You can download a free PDF.

    Here is a link to a pdf of the original text:
    https://ia800902.us.archive.org/2/it...%28L935%29.pdf

  20. #59
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?

    I see some logic problems with stating that swarming reflex is somehow bad genetics: similarly having problems coping with varroa = bad genetics? These are creatures whose behaviours have brought them through millions of years and now are a bit stymied by recent man made conditions: Parasite forms transported across oceans from one continent to another and actually millions of colonies placed together within feet of each, other which is many orders of magnitude greater concentration than what the organism evolved to cope with.

    Let's at least acknowledge it for what it is! Swarming is inconvenient for me and varroa is another inconvenience that I can easily live with. Perhaps the bee is doing a wonderful job of resisting our blundering attempts to coerce it to alter its ways.
    Frank

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Is it feasible to control swarming without performing a spring split?



    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

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