Speed of adaptation.... - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    But selection is the tool of evolution, no?

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    But selection is the tool of evolution, no?
    One tool (of many).
    One input (of many).

    Important tool in very short-term context as in - "did not get eaten TODAY - got selected to live another day".
    There are lots and lots of events in a bug life (or any organism life) that will qualify as "selection-type" events.

    Evolution is a VERY long-term and never ending process as applied to living organisms.
    It is a log book of millions and billions of consecutive events, related and non-related (including millions events of "selection" type, "mutation" type, "hybridization" type, "terminal catastrophe" type, "Act of God" type; and many types of other events as well, not even defined and understood yet but effecting the state of a specimen (or a group of the specimens) in every point of time and space).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    From the cricket article:

    "This evidence suggests that the mutations happened independently on both islands, making the Hawaiian silent crickets “an excellent example of convergent evolution”, says evolutionary biologist Richard Harrison of Cornell University in Ithaca, New York."

    This seems like a problem only with semantics. If selective pressures on an organism over time enhance some physical traits and diminish others in subsequent generations, I believe this is properly called "evolution" by any definition I can find.

    I agree with MB that I improperly used the word "mutation" in my earlier post in this thread. Natural selection favored what was already there (a more silent cricket). There was no mutation (no "addition").

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    We could speculate that all organs are under positive selection so long as that organ does something necessary to survival. Now explain why humans have an appendix. Before you get too far with this, recall that we all have an appendix and it has been retained for millenia. It is doing something!

    For more relevant information, look up Giraffe, Okapi, and Chalicothere.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    I have often wondered about the appendix. Is it a last vestige of something that had a more discernible function? Has modern medicine effectively stopped its ultimate elimination? I had mine removed when I was 14 years old. Without medical intervention, I might have died. Would I have died 10,000 years ago? Would my body have been able to survive the resulting infection at that time?

    Medicine coddles "inferior" traits. I suppose this is the thrust of the tf philosophy.

  7. #26

    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Unless you live on a desert island, you must have high levels of continuing selection (colony culling) or the bees simply revert to the "feral" form (as shown by the Arnot Forest data, where wild bees stopped short) because out-crossing is required, and heritabilty is low. Any one promoting the "crash, followed by redemption" narrative is immediately suspect, in my mind, for fraud.
    The positive thing is that if you are on an island (Gotland, otherwise remote area or controlled matings) bees adapt to mites in about ten years.

    (Terje Reinertsen case has to be explained in some other way: no controlled matings, not a remote area and still scientifically proven varroa resistance in about 10 years. )

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    The appendix occupies the same area as the float bladder in fish. What it does today was only sussed out a few years ago. Basically, it stores microbiota that reboot the gut in the event of some types of illness. We can live just fine without it in the modern world, but would often have needed it in the past.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    >We can live just fine without it in the modern world, but would often have needed it in the past.

    Now we need it to reboot the microbiota after a round of antibiotics...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >We can live just fine without it in the modern world, but would often have needed it in the past.

    Now we need it to reboot the microbiota after a round of antibiotics...
    OR after three days of brutal flushing prior to the colonoscopy.
    I need my appendix in me!
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    This thread has gone in an...odd direction. FWIW, I'm a medical researcher whose research includes evolution of the immune system and some microbiota stuff, so this is somewhat my "wheelhouse".

    For the record, evolution is formally defined as "the change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations", which means that changes in gene frequency (e.g. selection) over a single generation are, indeed, evolution. As are bigger physiological changes taking place over eons. There is no "line" below or above which change isn't evolution - if gene frequencies change, or a new mutation is introduced, or an existing gene variant eliminated, or a new species formed, its all evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    We could speculate that all organs are under positive selection so long as that organ does something necessary to survival. Now explain why humans have an appendix. Before you get too far with this, recall that we all have an appendix and it has been retained for millenia. It is doing something!
    The appendix has not been retained for millenia; its been continually shrinking for several million years, and a small portion of humans are born completely without one. The appendix has a very well understood job in other closely related primates, which is the "culture" of cellulose-digesting bacteria to aid in the consumption of woody plants. We have not needed this feature for ~4 million years, and have experienced a concordant reduction in the size of our appendix. Whether the residual appendix has a function in humans is unclear, but most of the data is consistent with it being vestigial - most of the proposed purposes (immune site, culture of other microbiota components) have not stood up to scrutiny.

    You're also making a common mistake in your thinking of evolution - you are assuming that something without a function will be eliminated. This is often not the case - selection is in constant competition with other evolutionary forces such as genetic drift, which tends to retain features. To be eliminated, a "useless" feature must carry a survival cost (e.g. be harmful) that incures a selective force greater than the "equalising" force of drift. Meaning, if there is no meaningful evolutionary cost to keeping a useless trait, that trait will tend to persist, with whatever change that occurs, occuring slowly and without direction.

    Here's a humbling thought - drift, not selection, is the major evolutionary force that separated us from chimps. Only about 5% of our genes - and mostly immune system genes at that - show evidence of selection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    The appendix occupies the same area as the float bladder in fish. What it does today was only sussed out a few years ago. Basically, it stores microbiota that reboot the gut in the event of some types of illness. We can live just fine without it in the modern world, but would often have needed it in the past.
    None of this is correct. Appendices have evolved over 30 times in vertebrates, usually out of the need to generate a "fermenter" to breakdown difficult to digest foods. The appendix evolves as an outpocket as the gut - which is also where swim bladders and lungs come from - which may be where your confusion comes from. It did not evolve from the swim bladder - our lungs evolved from swim bladders. The idea that the appendix acts as a reservoir for our microbiotia was never more than supposition, based on the observation of biofilms in it. There isn't really any data beyond that to support that idea - in fact, people without an appendix appear to have a more stable microbiota than those without one.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    Quote Originally Posted by SuiGeneris View Post
    This thread has gone in an...odd direction. FWIW, I'm a medical researcher whose research includes evolution of the immune system and some microbiota stuff, so this is somewhat my "wheelhouse".
    Bravo for your commentary.

    The larger lesson to be learned here: Amateur armchair theorizing should be avoided.

    This appears to be a particular problem within this forum's "TF" community, promoted by the Aristotelian deduction based on syllogisms that is heart of much "TF" theory.

    Test your theories with controlled science, please.

    The consistent failure of TF community to "test" their theories or even collect data ("No, I won't test for mite density") consigns TF to a semi-religious belief system.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Bravo for your commentary.

    The larger lesson to be learned here: Amateur armchair theorizing should be avoided.

    This appears to be a particular problem within this forum's "TF" community, promoted by the Aristotelian deduction based on syllogisms that is heart of much "TF" theory.

    Test your theories with controlled science, please.

    The consistent failure of TF community to "test" their theories or even collect data ("No, I won't test for mite density") consigns TF to a semi-religious belief system.
    Hmm JWC ok,, here is some solid data which it seems you are searching for . How many bees were TF from 3000 BC to 1600 Ad, Yep you guessed it 100% of them.,, and how many Bees are TF today? well,,,, all the feral ones and some of the ones TF keepers have. To Say TF is is semi religious, is odd, and somewhat history denying, as if you look at only the last 5000 Years there have been way more TF bees than the "treated" bees. And if humanity were to say "perish" We would soon have 100% TF bees again. If we had bees..... I submit 5000+ years of TF to be "data" Back in the day, the tree got cut down the Skep got chopped open, they were treated all right to Sulfur smoke, Nighty Night bees, or shook into the snow if that is "treatment"
    Controlled science, ha, Ok ok, On an island with no trees um where would bees swarm?/ no no block that chimney they must choose my choices, ok now where? there are ONLY man made boxes of various sizes. Ok write a paper, you mean that kind of controlled science....... Or we can look in a forest clear cut 75 years ago and conclude "bees prefer small tree cavities"
    So I have 4 TF hives, exactually what double blind, peer reviewed study do you think I can do for the 35 Bucks I have to spend on study's this year??
    I have a "Grant" let me buy 100 packages and do study XXXX No Matter how you slice it a "Scientific Study " is done with the best intentions. yes learning takes place, but it relates to today, not yester year or the next decade. AND it is not gospel. I recall "Scholars" once thought the world was flat and Jailed the dude who said it was a sphere. In 500 years today's Scientific study will look a bit the same to humans in the year 2500
    GG
    the more I learn about bees the less I realize I know.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    GG, by the same logic one could claim that the native Americans were treatment free for small pox until the European settlers introduced it here and caused the deaths of millions. Your argument based on 5000 years TF is, in my opinion, flawed.
    Actually, your logic is anti-TF. If 5000 years of evolution hasn't made the bees resistant, how do you expect to get resistant bees in one's lifetime? Just trying to provoke thought, no real agenda.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    jw
    Bees breed fast enough that they don't have to be immune. They just have to be resistant enough. For management practices, enough comes down to labor compared to return. Many ways to skin a cat for the person doing the work but the bees are doing just fine for bees. As far as life as opposed to death, nothing alive is immune to death no matter how much medicine is involved. Length, quality of life before death is a subjective term that if people are involved in the decisions, there is science and then there is choice. I might know that bacon and big gulps are going to take three years off my life but might think it is better during life then adding seven year by being a vegetarian.
    I too am just making discussion cause it is interesting.
    Cheers
    gww

    Ps, Choice is also subject to change, I might look differently when reaching those last seven years of life though my choice will have already been made by then.
    zone 5b

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    GG, by the same logic one could claim that the native Americans were treatment free for small pox until the European settlers introduced it here and caused the deaths of millions. Your argument based on 5000 years TF is, in my opinion, flawed.
    Actually, your logic is anti-TF. If 5000 years of evolution hasn't made the bees resistant, how do you expect to get resistant bees in one's lifetime? Just trying to provoke thought, no real agenda.
    JWP that is actually a great example. But correct me if I am wrong "some Native Americans did survive", and there are some still today. so one would need to factor in the Vaccines but right , something come along and hit a population very hard , but they are not all dead. And I am of the opinion "several" things came along and wacked bees, the ones that seemed either to not be affected or were in pockets where they were not laterally infected , survived to make a new better populations. IMO 5000 years has made them resistant. they're still here, so they "resisted every thing that came along. Surly you do not offer the bees have never been challenged by a mites, right? Mites must have also been here for many years. The issue IMO is 2 fold. Today we have "trucks" which spread the "challenges" farther and faster. Also like the mosiquito which normally is not lethal, and has been here for a very long time, when the "parisite" starts to spread Virus, then the impact is far greater. So do we now not have at least 7 virus vectored by Mites? we as humans are affecting the impact, because of the way some folk move bees all over and the shipment of Packages , etc. , so they are getting a double wammy. I do not expect the bees to get resistant in "one " lifetime of Mine, they better get there at some point or we do not have bees. I believe the argument stating, "I need to dope the bees" to save them, is also flawed. Who doped them the last several times they were challenged? I'll concede that there have been times where 80% of the bees dies for one reason or another, but in nature rarely does 1 virus or spore or bacteria, destroy a whole species. I also do not have an agenda, the bees hopefully will be here long after I am gone. The prove it, or it does not exist is puzzling as a base stance since we humans have really only had bees in the north America for 250 years, this is not "history" it is a blip on the time horizon. And one could argue that with ferals not being 100% wiped out, TF works. I think there are pockets where the bees are making progress to survive. As long as humans do not screw it up to often and too much they will likely succeed. Weather you and I see it is a toss up.
    GG

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    We actually agree on more points than we differ. One that is certainly a factor is the cross country transportation of bees, esentially diluting any regional resistance. However, unlike the zealots, I do not advocate for a discontinuation of the practice, rather we recognize it for what it is and find another solution.

    I would be willing to live on a remote tropical island with 1000 hives for as long as it takes for the bees to become resistant. Perhaps even using hard Bond in the begining to weed out the most susceptible.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    We actually agree on more points than we differ. One that is certainly a factor is the cross country transportation of bees, esentially diluting any regional resistance. However, unlike the zealots, I do not advocate for a discontinuation of the practice, rather we recognize it for what it is and find another solution.

    I would be willing to live on a remote tropical island with 1000 hives for as long as it takes for the bees to become resistant. Perhaps even using hard Bond in the begining to weed out the most susceptible.
    JWP most points are intuitive and somewhat the same in every state. I normally have hair on my neck raise when I hear" I'm from the government and I am here to help" But IMO it is time for the individual states, to take a stance on Bees migration/shipment. Some,, say California , need the migration and they would obviously vote to keep it. Some states like maybe north and south Dakota do not have any value from shipment, and vote to stop it. The result would be 2 fold. the states that vote to stop it would have pockets of "bees" fearals + local adapted that head down the "somewhat natural, TF trail" And those that cannot be with out it could have the migrations. Maybe screen on the truck for those states, and pass thru no stops. The second "feature " is you would have bee raisers / breeders, in each of the "closed" states. even 15 states would generate 15 or more lines of bees, that start to be "unaffected" by bees from other states. The population would stabilize IMO and we would have more pockets of survivor bees. Some states would screw it up and some folks would Cheat but for the most part , some areas of stability would emerge. Then treat or not treat is not really as important. You would soon find out what you individually need/want to do. Today IMO we have a good number of folks would would go TF but the truck load dropped off down the road, wrecks the DCA and the Mite Bombs affect the hives they have. I am a Proponent of do what ever the he!! you want as long as you do not affect others, the migration does affect others so in Time I expect it to be more regulated/ phased out. I see some "drone pollination" Drones as in unmanned small flying objects, Being tested. so it may be soon the bees are not "needed" as much for pollination. Then some of this can be done. Importing bees from other countries is just nutty, We really do not know what they carry, and or how to stop it. The next mite coming in from Asia will be way worse that this one. So some plan is needed or we will soon be fighting that one as well. Better labeling would also help, the cheap Home depo and wal mart honey needs to be accurately labeled. Folks would pay for the real stuff, but to them it says honey, and is 1/4 the price I charge so why pay the difference. This "fake honey is really getting interesting. I could feed "rice Syrup" to my bees, extract and blend with other real honey and it is virtually undetectable. Or feed for a couple weeks prior to flow and a couple after and extract it all. I am confident this is what some of the lower priced honey is. If there is money in it , people somewhere will do it. I mostly make honey for my family and friends, so it is still a hobby , but if I "had" to make a living and I was selling over seas , the playground would change.
    GG

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    jw
    nothing alive is immune to death no matter how much medicine is involved.
    Part of living or semi-living creatures are immortal to be honest: parts of programs, information. Those are true players in evolution of livings things in earth. not bees, humans nor species.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    V.A.
    Part of living or semi-living creatures are immortal to be honest: parts of programs, information. Those are true players in evolution of livings things in earth. not bees, humans nor species.
    Tell that to the dinosaurs.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Speed of adaptation....

    You mean all the birds: living dinosaurs in the present?
    I did not write that all programs are immortal. There are some. The information in the hardware (organism or virus) is information. It doesn't matter if it's a tomato or dinosaur organism, if it's similar or identical

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