And now this.... GM bees.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default And now this.... GM bees.

    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Bellevue, NE, USA
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    One part of this article that grabbed me is the genetic pool. So if say in 20 years I have natural bees and a natural queen mates with a GMO bee, does her offspring mean i will get sued for stealing the GMO technology? Kinda like Monsanto did with their corn genetics? I'm pretty sure whoever comes up with this Frankenbee will make it proprietary and go after people. First it was big Ag. Then Big genetics to make Ag even bigger. Next will be big polinators buisness. Just like in all the previous mentioned the little guys die out and commonsenseless college people will be in it for the money, not the morals.
    "Never slow down, just go around." Me, until i started keeping bees.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Scott county, Arkansas, Usa
    Posts
    1,446

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    I read that earlier today. Strange days, indeed.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Lambton Shores, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    275

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUT View Post
    One part of this article that grabbed me is the genetic pool. So if say in 20 years I have natural bees and a natural queen mates with a GMO bee, does her offspring mean i will get sued for stealing the GMO technology? Kinda like Monsanto did with their corn genetics? I'm pretty sure whoever comes up with this Frankenbee will make it proprietary and go after people. First it was big Ag. Then Big genetics to make Ag even bigger. Next will be big polinators buisness. Just like in all the previous mentioned the little guys die out and commonsenseless college people will be in it for the money, not the morals.
    Thing is, this never happened. In both cases where Monsanto sued farmers (Bowman and Schmeiser), the farmers had knowingly and deliberately planted and propagated patented seeds without paying the licencing fee. The farmers stole, and did so deliberately and knowing full well what they were doing. The anti-GMO crowd avoids that little detail as it ruins their david-vs-golliath myth.

    Quote Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUT View Post
    One part of this article that grabbed me is the genetic pool. So if say in 20 years I have natural bees and a natural queen mates with a GMO bee, does her offspring mean i will get sued for stealing the GMO technology?
    It depends. If you knowingly & deliberately propagate a patented GMO, than you are guilty of patent infringement and/or theft. Accidental cross-breeding (cross-pollination, etc) is explicitly excluded as an actionable event, meaning that if it happens and you have no idea it happened, you are legally protected. Cross pollination (especially of corn, which is a broadcast pollinator) happens all the time, and no one gets sued over it. It wouldn't even be possible to regulate that.

    As for the article, it would have been nice if the author had made at least a passing attempt at A) learning the science, B) reporting it accurately, and C) tried to not write a 10-page screed of scaremongering. He/she couldn't even get the difference between gene editing and transgenics right

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Bellevue, NE, USA
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Wow really?! Oh the things I dont know and learn from. GAH I love this forum. Thanks for the clarification SuiGeneris, I was a little fear mongered, but more upset about the info I read. Now that you made it more clear for me I am not upset about all of it. I generally dislike GOV things like that. I try not to dwell on that crap but sometimes i need a rant. lol.
    "Never slow down, just go around." Me, until i started keeping bees.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,768

    Default

    >So if say in 20 years I have natural bees and a natural queen mates with a GMO bee, does her offspring mean i will get sued for stealing the GMO technology? Kinda like Monsanto did with their corn genetics?

    Yes.

    Monsanto likes to act like that didn’t happen but the farmers tell a very different story. In fact they say they notified Monsanto when a powerline easement was sprayed with roundup and the Canola there didn’t die. He asked Monsanto to get their plants off of his property. So Monsanto sued him.

    Then they started suing corn farmers and soybean farmers even if they never bought Monsanto seed.

    Who are you going to believe? I’m sure the court transcripts should clarify things some.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,740

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    When I worked for a big ag firm 20 years ago, we were told that cross pollination of Roundup ready soy beans with regular soy beans meant that what was then Monsanto owned those beans that showed the resistant traits, even if the farmer had never bought the patented beans. I doubt much has changed.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Butler Co, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    446

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Biggest thing to me is that they didn't invent or create the genes... they moved them from somewhere to another place.

    Some of the research was done at universities, and most that did research got a new building that they named after an executive, or the company, or a subsidiary, etc.

    I don't see how you get a patent for something that you didn't create, you only used it in a new way and place. I realize extensive R&D dollars were invested, with the promise of a payback, but the patent variety protection act has set the stage for abuse, imo.
    Hindsight is 20/10, not 20/20...
    After the fact, I always know what didn't work.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Lambton Shores, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    275

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bdfarmer555 View Post
    Biggest thing to me is that they didn't invent or create the genes... they moved them from somewhere to another place.
    Most of the stuff reported on by the reporter wasn't even transgenics (genes moved from one organism to another), but rather gene editing (where existing genes are rendered inactive).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bdfarmer555 View Post
    Some of the research was done at universities, and most that did research got a new building that they named after an executive, or the company, or a subsidiary, etc.
    Almost all the research is done at unis or NGO's. None of them in the article received buildings, money or other compensation from industry, as is disclosed in the disclosure sections of the relevant publications.

    And even if they did, this is nothing more than a red herring - it doesn't change their results or the applicability of the technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bdfarmer555 View Post
    I don't see how you get a patent for something that you didn't create, you only used it in a new way and place. I realize extensive R&D dollars were invested, with the promise of a payback, but the patent variety protection act has set the stage for abuse, imo.
    Generally speaking, you cannot get a patent on a naturally existing gene. You can patent organisms you've genetically modified, and you can patent applications (e.g. transferring resistance genes to an organism to allow a specific pesticide to be used on it).

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Lambton Shores, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    275

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    When I worked for a big ag firm 20 years ago, we were told that cross pollination of Roundup ready soy beans with regular soy beans meant that what was then Monsanto owned those beans that showed the resistant traits, even if the farmer had never bought the patented beans. I doubt much has changed.
    That was then case (the patent has aged out). However, Monsanto doesn't own the resultant seeds (e.g. the farmer can still sell them for feed/etc), nor can Monsanto sue them for having the genetics present in their seeds.

    The only exception to that is if the farmer with the cross-pollinated seeds replants those seeds with the deliberate purpose of growing a crop with the GMO trait. Sale of cross-polinated seeds, or accidental replanting (spillage, etc) or cross-pollinated seeds is not legally actionable.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Lambton Shores, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    275

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >So if say in 20 years I have natural bees and a natural queen mates with a GMO bee, does her offspring mean i will get sued for stealing the GMO technology? Kinda like Monsanto did with their corn genetics?

    Yes.

    Monsanto likes to act like that didn’t happen but the farmers tell a very different story. In fact they say they notified Monsanto when a powerline easement was sprayed with roundup and the Canola there didn’t die. He asked Monsanto to get their plants off of his property. So Monsanto sued him.

    Then they started suing corn farmers and soybean farmers even if they never bought Monsanto seed.

    Who are you going to believe? I’m sure the court transcripts should clarify things some.
    I was unable to find any legitimate documentation showing this to be the case - e.g. court filings or reports from non-activist sources. I challenge you to provide links to the relevant court decisions or other documents showing this. In fact, your exact claim has been tested in court, and the court ruled that not one of Monsanto's ~700 lawsuits and out-of-course settlements involved farmers who unwittingly had patented seed on their property (both GMO and non-GMO variants): http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/...6-6-2013.1.PDF

  13. #12
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    5,460

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    You can't get sued for AP (Adventitious Presence). At the same time you have to be careful about it though as the traits may have restrictions. For example, if you deal with a distributor or grain elevator that may deal only with non gmo grain and their customers expect as much. Knowingly propagating and selecting for the traits is where people got into trouble or buying bags of bulk grain from elevators knowing full well it was traited material and not for planting is where people were getting sued over. MB's story may have some validity but it typically played out like this... well, you didn't know you had AP... but then why is 99% of your field traited.....

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Lambton Shores, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    275

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    You can't get sued for AP (Adventitious Presence). At the same time you have to be careful about it though as the traits may have restrictions. For example, if you deal with a distributor or grain elevator that may deal only with non gmo grain and their customers expect as much. Knowingly propagating and selecting for the traits is where people got into trouble or buying bags of bulk grain from elevators knowing full well it was traited material and not for planting is where people were getting sued over. MB's story may have some validity but it typically played out like this... well, you didn't know you had AP... but then why is 99% of your field traited.....
    Exactly. We've grown both GMO (from KWS) and non-GMO sugar beets on our farm* and have had cases of GMO beets growing from spillage in non-GMO fields. Not only did KWS not give a ****, they helped identify the contaminated area so that we could separate the beets so that they wouldn't go to the wrong processor. Contrary to what people seem to believe, these companies are not monsters and in most cases are an absolute pleasure to work with. Monsanto (now Bayer) knows we have a dozen or so seed suppliers to work with - it is not in their interest to treat us poorly or to work against us. Steal from them, and yes, they will come down on your with an army or lawyers - same as any other big firm. But work with them honesty and they'll treat you well.

    *FWIW, my extended family owns/farms 10,000 hectares (~24,000 acres) of combined crop/range land as a farmers collective (essentially as a corporation, although legally there are some differences). I do not live or work on the farm itself, but I am part of the team that negotiates our annual seed purchases and receive some of the profits in return.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Bellevue, NE, USA
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    All I'm concerned with is the color GREEN. More to the point of getting legally robbed by big companies. Big companies are mostly concerned with the GREEN. Their corporate big bosses and lawyers only truly care about money. Its been seen by articles, many articles about anything can be traced to money. A good decision here, a bad decision there, ALL can be traced to money. Most are also traced to stupidity and negligence, but money makes america go round. Majority of CEO's arent really interested in much else when it comes down to it.

    Just how I feel about it from how I've read people through the years. You know, that feeling you get from people. Im pretty in tune with that. It sucks. lol.
    "Never slow down, just go around." Me, until i started keeping bees.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Aylett, Virginia
    Posts
    3,740

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Hey guys and gals, let's keep this thread about GMO's and not get sidetracked on a money tangent. Money is a good thing. I wish I had more of it.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Bellevue, NE, USA
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Hey guys and gals, let's keep this thread about GMO's and not get sidetracked on a money tangent. Money is a good thing. I wish I had more of it.
    True sir. I do as well but for me its a moral thing. lots of people do their thing just for money and aren't happy, probably cause they screw over other people or get screwed over to make that money. I'd rather be poor and happy than rich and hate life. Id say im closer to the latter. lol.
    But back to the GMO, when I think about a GMO bee it sounds cool! The perfect bee? I dunno though. Lots of honey and nice temperment? If it works and doesnt turn out like AHB then cool. I just dunno if id want to get into it being that its not naturally bread like livestock and crops once were. I guess we'll see in the years to come...
    "Never slow down, just go around." Me, until i started keeping bees.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Lambton Shores, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    275

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUT View Post
    I just dunno if id want to get into it being that its not naturally bread like livestock and crops once were. I guess we'll see in the years to come...
    There is nothing natural about the way that our current non-GMO crops and livestock have been bread. You'd be hard pressed to find anything on your table, farm or even backyard garden that doesn't have radiation/chemical mutagenesis, induced polypolidy, interspecies hybridisation, line breeding, marker-assisted breeding, reverse breeding, or double-haploids in its breeding history. None of those happen in nature, and all but two (mutagenesis and double-haploids) have been used by humans (largely unwittingly) for millennia.

    About the only thing different about GMO's is that GMO produces very small, specific changes to the genome, while "classical" breeding are relatively uncontrolled and generate enormous, unknown changes to the genome. The changes GMO's create are incredibly specific - in some cases (gene editing) to literally a single DNA base.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    6,586

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Heres a 6 year old thread with lots of hand wringing and predictions about the prospect of patented GMO bees. Of course nothing has come of it....
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...light=monsanto
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Bellevue, NE, USA
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    I've never heard of mutagenesis and double-haploids. I need to get educated on those. As far as breading goes we got to what we had before GMO's through milleniums of just breading. It worked out for our ancestors and they were primitive. Now we take what they created and all the work they did somewhat naturally and we do more through genetics. Maybe thats our fate and the next evolution. What do these mods truly do to us when we eat them though? How ,if any, would GMO bees affect the honey or flowers they pollinate. SuiGeneris you sound very qualified in this field. I know nothing about such things. Way beyond my scope of understanding. But I love to learn. Pleases learn me! Please! lol.
    "Never slow down, just go around." Me, until i started keeping bees.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Lambton Shores, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    275

    Default Re: And now this.... GM bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUT View Post
    I've never heard of mutagenesis and double-haploids.
    Mutagenesis is you nail the seeds with a s***-ton of radiation or mutagenic chemical (usually to the point where 60-70% of the seeds die), grow out the mutants that survive, and then try to cross out as many of the tens of thousands of mutations present to keep the few you want. This tech has been around since the 1920's. Double-haploids is a bit harder to explain...essentially for you force the sperm/egg (pollen/seed) to double their chromasomes and then breed with that, giving you offspring with either 3 or 4 (instead of the normal 2) copies of each chromasome. That tech's a bit newer - invented in the 1960's, but not really used until the 80's.

    Quote Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUT View Post
    As far as breading goes we got to what we had before GMO's through milleniums of just breading. It worked out for our ancestors and they were primitive.
    Except that it didn't work out. History is filled with repeated famines and agricultural collapses. These are the number one reason why cultures have gone extinct. The high cultures of the bronze age (Sumaria, Babylon, etc) all died because of this, as have hundreds of societies since. Even in the modern era its an issue - as examples the Irish potato famine of the mid-1800's, and the collapse of Somalia in the 1990's. Traditional agriculture is many things, but reliable is not one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JUGGERNAUT View Post
    What do these mods truly do to us when we eat them though?
    When consumed they act as nutrition. For transgenic foods, the transgenes are simply DNA, which is present in every piece of food you've ever consumed. When you eat DNA It gets digested, and your body then uses it to make more DNA or breaks it down further for energy. Those transgenes genes in turn encode proteins, which are what do the actual work. And those proteins are digested when you eat them, just as is all the other proteins present in every bite of food you've consumed. Neither the DNA, nor the resulting proteins, make it past your stomach intact. From the perspective of your body, a transgenic organism is inseparable from a non-transgenic organism.

    Nor do "unexpected" things happen when you transfer genes between organisms. One of the nice things about all life on earth sharing a singular evolutionary history stemming from a single common ancestor is that all life on earth uses the same biology. Thus, a gene from a human works the same in a cow, a plant, a yeast or a bacteria. You can take that gene and know that it will do the same thing, in the same way, regardless of what organism you plug it into. This is science, not magic. If a gene codes for a protein which recognised and cleaves glyphosate (roundup) into an inactive form, that is all that gene can and will do, regardless of what organism you put it into. That is the joy of how biology, biochemistry and physics come together to create life.

    When it comes to gene-edited organisms, the differences are even less. Gene editing is literally a way to remove specific genes from an organisms - nothing is added, only unwanted genes are removed.

    As for how I know this, while I grew up on farms (and "farm" as a member of my families cooperative/my wife is a farmer), in my day job I run a biomedical research lab and am a uni prof. While our work does not have anything to do with creating transgenic therapies, we do use transgenics all the time as a research tool. I have, conservatively, 400 bacterial strains carrying human genes for various research purposes. I also teach a course where a major aspect it teaching students the basics of microbial transgenics and their creation/use in industry, and have also done a little bit of work as a contractor in the commercial fermentation world (some of which involves transgenics).

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •