Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    i.e. it sounds like more treatments and varying kinds of treatments are becoming increasingly necessary to keep mite levels down now compared to 10 years ago.
    Ten years ago most beekeepers were using the "other" standard products to combat mites. Today, OAV has become the prime method and everything else is being compared to OAV.

    I think you are seeing more discussions like this because OAV was never really intended to "replace" the others, it is just another weapon in the arsenal. We are beginning to see the pendulum swing back the other direction as it is becoming more clear that it is not the lone silver bullet everyone was hoping it would be. Too many variables with climate for it to be a one size fits all treatment.
    To everything there is a season....

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    In my humble opinion, the more you treat with OAV the safer you are, I see no detrimental effects on bees so I think you could treat every 3 days for 6 months and if that does not wipe out your mites you are importing them faster than you can kill them.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    It would not be unusual for a species to respond to increased mortality with increased fertility. The difference between EUs 30 years experience and that reported here maybe in methods. Supers comes to mind.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    I have a 2009 edition of Keith Delaplane's First Lessons in Beekeeping. The 24 hour sticky board natural drop treatment threshold for the Southeastern US is as high as 190 mites. Can you imagine seeing 180 mites on your sticky board every 24 hours and thinking, "Well, not a problem because it doesn't exceed the threshold."?

    In the relative short time I have been beekeeping, I have seen the alcohol wash threshold move from 10%, to 5%, to 3% and now some are saying 1%.

    My non-scientific, finger-to-the-wind assessment is that not a lot has changed with the varroa mite, but the virulence of the viruses they vector has radically shifted. What was survivable with high mite loads only 15 years ago, is no longer survivable today.

    I believe (again, no science here -- spitballs only) that what we are actually seeing is increased and intensified viral loads, not increased mite loads.

    I continue to believe that the VSH, Hygenic, biting mite breeding programs are not the solution. If we are going to breed for a better bee, we need to breed the bee that can withstand these viral loads. Weaponizing them to kill/attack/harass mites is just a losing battle.

    Just an uneducated, unscientific opinion. I have about as many of them as I have mites.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Eric: I am a little surprised you are not having some issues with thymol treatments in Georgia. I lost a couple of hives with Apiguard while trying to treat in the high 80s and have not gone back to it. Have you had any trouble with heat and thymol?
    I have had good results with thymol. The only issue I have had was that it chases the bees out of the hive for a few days. I use ApiLife Var and give 3 treatments, 7 days apart.
    Treat2_0818.jpg

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericweller View Post
    I have had good results with thymol. The only issue I have had was that it chases the bees out of the hive for a few days. I use ApiLife Var and give 3 treatments, 7 days apart.
    Treat2_0818.jpg
    I have only used Apiguard. I really liked thymol, but I gassed out a couple hives and stopped using it. I may give ApiLife Var a try. Maybe it is a little milder and more suited for our impossible heat. Thanks Eric.

  8. #27

    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    I continue to believe that the VSH, Hygenic, biting mite breeding programs are not the solution. If we are going to breed for a better bee, we need to breed the bee that can withstand these viral loads. Weaponizing them to kill/attack/harass mites is just a losing battle.
    I agree.
    I have been eagerly waiting for the day, and asking, when do the VSH projects in Europe start their TF experiment. Because breeding a 100% VSH bee is useless, unless it is tested in real life circumstances, where outside mite flow will cause the mite and virus load go skyrocketing no matter how resistant your bees are.

    Bond method is needed in the end, no matter how you do the breeding.

    There are huge differences in virus resistance. It is essential to combine virus resistance in the breeding of varroa resistance. This is why I always have criticized the use of low thresholds in IPM methods. Randy Oliver is using 3%, 5 % would have been selecting harder for virus resistance.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    How much does everyone know about antibiotic resistant bacteria and how they become resistant to antibiotics over time? The same thing likely happens when treating mites. It is microevolution. In any populations of mites in a hive, there will likely be a few whose genetic makeup permits them to survive/tolerate the treatment (think one end of a bell curve). They survive the treatment - live to reproduce and pass that genetic resistance to their offspring that then also carry resistance to the treatment. This necessitates higher dosages and stronger treatments. A few have the resistance to that higher dosage, survive, reproduce, and so on.

    That is the process by which we have produced antibiotic resistant bacteria. It is also why plague doesn't decimate human populations as it did in the past (most of us carry the resistance to survive it passed on to us by the few ancestors who survived the first outbreaks). Each time you treat - if you don't kill all the mites in the hive - the survivors reproduce and you get subsequent generations of mites that are ever harder to kill with that treatment. Most pest companies and pesticide producers understand this and it is why they rotate their treatments and treatment formulas regularly.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Hey Nd OAV is like a swatter is to flies, you physically hurt them little mites.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    I have a hard time imagining a world were the varroa mite developes a resistance to having its feet disolved off and bleeding to death (my understanding of OA's mode of action).
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    This has been a very helpful thread! Next year I will try caging the queen in late summer for a broodless period. On the bright side, I've seen virtually no SHB this year!

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I have a hard time imagining a world were the varroa mite develops a resistance to having its feet dissolved off and bleeding to death (my understanding of OA's mode of action).
    In the middle of a mite crisis, the visual of a mite getting its feet dissolved is giving me some degree of satisfaction.
    Beekeeping 6 Years - 12 production hives and about 12 nucs - Treatment OAV Only

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    My "finger to the wind spitball take" is the viruses have been getting worse as shown by the lowering of treatment thresholds and the off label, off season use of OAV has been growing. These 2 combined mean people are treating earlier and earlier at a time when its not effective, so they have more weeks before broodless so they need more treatments.

    Hey Nd OAV is like a swatter is to flies, you physically hurt them little mites.
    sure, but kill a large amount of a population and you then have the fastest and most warie flys left to breed.. further more its mode of action hasn't been proven so making any claim is a bit silly. a change in the mites phoirc period by a day or so could bugger OAV schedules

    Each time you treat - if you don't kill all the mites in the hive - the survivors reproduce and you get subsequent generations of mites that are ever harder to kill with that treatment. Most pest companies and pesticide producers understand this and it is why they rotate their treatments and treatment formulas regularly.
    yes and no, I am all for rotations, you need to kill off what one mode of action didn't
    But we need to look at what happend with mites in the past.
    "Pyrethroid resistant mites were first detected
    in the Lombarby region in the north-west of
    Italy around 1991. This region was closely
    connected by a well-established movement of
    colonies to Sicily, where similar problems may
    have been occurring, but precise data is
    lacking, although resistant mites were later
    detected.22 Resistant mites quickly spread via
    bee movement into the neighbouring regions
    of southern Switzerland, Slovenia and
    southern France. From there it continued its
    spread throughout Europe following
    established colony trade routes in France22
    finally reaching Germany in 1997, Finland via
    possible bee movement from Italy in 1998
    n 1997 pyrethroid resistant mites were
    detected in the USA. Although the first
    reports of resistance were from South
    Dakota,1
    it was quickly established that this
    was linked to bees moved from Florida where
    tests confirmed that pyrethroid resistant
    mites were also present.6
    Incidentally, Florida
    was also the place where the original varroa
    mites entered the USA in 1987.19 Florida is a
    major bee breeding and distribution centre
    with bee packages sent to all over the USA.
    This has aided the long-distance spread of
    both the original varroa and now their
    pyrethroid resistant sisters. In only seven
    years resistant mites have spread nationwide
    in the USA
    Martin 2015

    It doesn't seem to be a slow march towards resistance on a landscape scale , more it seems to be a mutation of a single mite that then reproduces and spreads by bee movement. The problem isn't you might develop resistance in your yard, its that some one some were might, and if the bulk of hives arn't having there treatments rotated, this mutation will quickly become the dominant type. The view is reinforced by the fact that the mutation that gave Pyrethroid resistant mites is different in the US, UK, and mainland Europe. González-Cabrera EtAl 2016

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Randy Oliver is doing an approved trial of the Oxalic acid / glycerin solution soaked into cellulose material an placed on brood nest frames. The product is approved and in use in Argentina and I believe in European countries. Correct me if I am wrong on this. Oxalic adid vaporization is virtually a flash treatment with effectiveness for only a few days and only on phoretic mites whereas the OA/glycerine strips affect hangs around for a month on bees and surroundings so the mites cannot avoid exposure at some point in their cycle.

    You will be hearing more about this in the future.
    I have a friend that says OA-glycerin soaked pulp egg carton strips hung over brood frames for 42 days works.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by NDnewbeek View Post
    How much does everyone know about antibiotic resistant bacteria and how they become resistant to antibiotics over time? The same thing likely happens when treating mites.
    A totally different scenario entirely. Bacteria are single-cell organisms, and as such, any mutation which occurs stands a pretty good chance of being accepted.

    This is in marked contrast to a mutation in a higher organism which impinges upon the millions of differentiated cells which form highly complex systems - the full acceptance of which is essential if such a mutation is to result in a fully viable organism. So - bacteria mutate very easily (and also very quickly) whereas mutations in higher organisms are extremely rare and only occur over an extended timescale.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by NDnewbeek View Post
    That is the process by which we have produced antibiotic resistant bacteria. It is also why plague doesn't decimate human populations as it did in the past (most of us carry the resistance to survive it passed on to us by the few ancestors who survived the first outbreaks).
    What RUBBISH. We do NOT possess resistance to the plague bacterium. The reason why plague is under control these days is as a result of improved Public Health measures and improved personal hygiene. Suggest you read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubonic_plague

    Studies have been done recently which indicate that it is highly unlikely that the black rat (rattus rattus) was the vector for the Black Death (bubonic plague) which swept through Europe in the Middle Ages: it is far more likely that the disease spread - by means of flea bites - from person to person. Apparently, transmission via the rat could not account for the speed of spread.

    These days people in First World countries wash fairly regularly. In those days they didn't, and so fleas on humans were able to spread the disease.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    No matter the method of control, including TF, leaving any alive, and there are some left alive even if it is from your neighbors, creates a population vacuum. The most successful mite strategy in a vacuum is rapid reproduction.

    Mites may not be able to develop resistance, that does not prohibit adaptation to treatment.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    In all my years of beekeeping, I haven't had much of a problem with mites. Confectionery Sugar kills the mites and the bees use the sugar. It's a win win.
    My stores sell Formic Pro which is safer than the other ones on the market. We sell other brands but this is safer and natural.
    "Where wisdom is called for, force is of little use."
    Herodotus (circa 485-425 BC), Greek Historian

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Mites may not be able to develop resistance, that does not prohibit adaptation to treatment.
    But is it really a case of "adaptation to treatment" ?

    Prior to Varroa arriving, there was no treatment for Varroa (obviously), but there was - from the Varroa's point-of-view - a total absence of any other organism occupying that particular parasitic niche. So, for the mites it was a case of all their birthdays having been rolled into one - with no competition, and no effective resistance against their activities.

    All a treatment (such as VOA) is doing is trying to 'wind the clock back' to the days before Varroa - admittedly, such that the same parasitic vacuum continues to exist - but your wording unfortunately gives the impression that treatment is an active participant in stimulating the mite to breed. Whereas VOA is benign as a stimulant - it is the mite's reproduction which remains unopposed and thus it will continue to breed at the same rate as it did before. There's no evidence that this reproduction rate has changed, and thus no evidence that adaptation has taken place.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    I also wonder about mites ability to develop resistance to oxalic acid with glycerin, as the mode of delivery is different than OA Vaporization.

    Glycerin release, is, I'm assuming a vapor over time?

    While OAV are small solid crystals.

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