Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglerock View Post
    In all my years of beekeeping, I haven't had much of a problem with mites. Confectionery Sugar kills the mites and the bees use the sugar. It's a win win.
    My stores sell Formic Pro which is safer than the other ones on the market. We sell other brands but this is safer and natural.
    I rotate treatment: OAV in the spring and Formic Pro in the Fall - one month apart starting around Labor Day. First time ever I had 100% coming out of winter. (6/6). Always wrap my hives but used Bee Cozys for the first time last winter and I'm sure it helped.

    This may bring up some debate, but I never do mite counts and never will. I can't see the logic in spending the time testing for something that is always going to be here. (Yes, I know the argument about breeding stronger bees. That's a discussion for another time.) Tracheal mites in my area are a VERY big problem. It breaks my heart to see hundreds of bees in the Spring, crawling on the ground unable to fly (Much of my yard is concrete) so even if I had low varroa counts, I'd be treating anyway. A couple of OAV treatments in spring and hardly any bees crawling around. (The wands take much too long and I just bought a fogger.)

    Then I hit them in the fall with Formic Pro, as I mentioned. Seems to take care of things.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    But is it really a case of "adaptation to treatment" ? ............LJ
    Somehow, the "adaption to treatment" by default is viewed as if some qualitative change - like say, a thicker shell.

    Well, the behavioral changes are one such thing that could develop rather quickly.
    Fortunately for them, the animals are not plants and can actually move around and scratch and more...

    For example, IF you are regular sauna user (I am) you know really well about different temperature gradients in the sauna and select the zone which fits you the best.

    I will challenge the OA applicators now - do you know about and do you have absolute control at all times of the OA concentrations in every single hive (AND in every single corner of that hive) while it is being treated?

    One thing the mites should do (and they will, being the darn robust creatures they are) - figure out where in the hive they can temporarily hide out to improve their chances.
    There is plenty of behavioral mite training going on just for this single parameter...

    It maybe the mites who like it cooler (OR warmer OR more humid OR more dry OR at the back of the hive) are being selected as we speak by the pretty random OA applications across the variety of the hives and the beekeepers and the locations. Gee, artificial selection of the mites for the best survivors is going with some crazy pace...
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    I also wonder about mites ability to develop resistance to oxalic acid with glycerin, as the mode of delivery is different than OA Vaporization.

    Glycerin release, is, I'm assuming a vapor over time?

    While OAV are small solid crystals.
    There are over one hundred pages of posts on NZ beekeeping forum discussing OA/ gly. The assumption seems to be that the glycerine provides a moist rather sticky mixture with the oxalic acid that is spread around by the bees bodies over the course of about a month as they chew up and discard the strips.

    Sublimed OA may not remain in crystal form for very long in the hive. They pick up moisture quite quickly and dissipate. Moving around on either comb or bees will expose the mites delicate feet to the effects of the acid and how it is presented may not make a lot of difference in regard to the possible development of resistance. The oa/gly gives a timed release affect.
    Frank

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    But is it really a case of "adaptation to treatment" ? LJ keeping me in check with quick sloppy language.

    Really can't say that it has happened. Am saying it will happen. Reproduction rate of the mite when they arrived was not uniform (assumption on my part) and was developed to suit a host that had defenses. Removal of most mites creates a void that will be filled by those that can fill the void fastest.

    The main point was lack of resistance to OA true or false is not the complete story of whether it is harder to keep them in check.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    No i rotate several treatment methods including synthetic strips, formic acid, and thymol. One treatment spring and one treatment fall. Right now the hives have cardboard strips soaked in oxalic acid / glycerine mix.
    How long do you leave the cardboard strips in Oldtimer? Have you tried the blue Towels? what is it about the cardboard you like?

    thanks In advance
    GG

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    We do NOT possess resistance to the plague bacterium. The reason why plague is under control these days is as a result of improved Public Health measures and improved personal hygiene.
    yes, and no
    The CCR5-Ä32 mutation is from plague survivors, pre plage is was 1 in 20,000, to day its one in 10 of the European pop and confers HIV resistance.
    but for most humans, the change was IPM (attacking the vectors), its still out there, we see out breaks in prairy dogs in my area. how ever if the IPM measures had not been enacted we likely would see higher levels of CCR5-Ä32 in the gen pop.

    But is it really a case of "adaptation to treatment"
    behavioral resistance is still resistance.. genetically bait/trap shy mice/rats are out there. In areas that have a large amout of people treating brood on with corces of OAV a reduction in the mite phoric period would be a likely adaption of behavior as your slecting for the mites that go back into brood between treatment , So thats a +1 for extended action treatment like dribble and OAG. There are people (anti treatment) arguing that the study's show this has all ready happened and the poric period of mites has shortened, but its hard to compare the data for the 90s to now, and realy its amazing how little we know about these buggers, 2 years ago we all new they feed on bee blood... yet some how no one had bothered to test that?

  8. #47
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Evidence of historical antibody production from hundreds of years ago, is not the same as historical adaptations continuing to offer modern-day protection to the same disease - if it did then there would no longer be any need for immunisation programs for our young, nor for the frequent top-ups of Anthrax jabs.

    But is it really a case of "adaptation to treatment"
    behavioral resistance is still resistance..
    Developed resistance to a systemic miticide may be a reasonable observation - but to then claim that such treatments have actually improved the biological performance of the mite in some way is baseless.

    I would suggest that there are two factors which could account for this perception: firstly, as we learn a little more (but still nowhere near enough, certainly) about the Varroa mite, then our expectations become greater - in essence the bar becomes gradually raised such that we now expect total, or near total eradication from whatever treatment is being used. We compare treatments: we monitor the mite fall; we have developed methods of determining levels of infestation; resistance to some systemic miticides have indeed occurred - none of these existed 20-30 years ago, and so as a result there is a perception that the problem is actually worsening.

    Secondly - and perhaps more importantly - I would suggest that there is a higher concentration of honeybee colonies per given area of land mass in the United States than anywhere else on earth. The spread of parasites and disease are well-known to go hand-in-glove with population density, and so the Varroa problem has become more severe in the States than elsewhere, and especially wherever the colony density is highest. Now whether this is factually true or not I couldn't say, but it would account for a perception of increased severity, especially when contrasted with reports from those who have the Varroa mite problem well under control.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    No issues where i am. However for me anyway, i found from the gitgo, that treatments 5 or 7 days apart were ineffective, to get a good result I had to do 7 treatments 3 days apart.
    Interesting, thanks for this. Oh, and love your tag line. Good ole Sol. Almost forgot about him.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    The CCR5-Ä32 mutation is from plague survivors, pre plage is was 1 in 20,000, to day its one in 10 of the European pop and confers HIV resistance.
    I've always found this claim of a connection to be somewhat 'fishy', as HIV is caused by a virus, and plague by a bacterium - which suggests to me that any transferred resistance must be as a result of lucky happenstance - i.e. pure coincidence.

    So I 'did a Google' which came up with the following update re: this idea:

    La Jolla, CA, February 11, 2004 -- A group of scientists at The Scripps Research Institute have provided strong evidence that a popular hypothesis concerning the origins of a genetic mutation common among Caucasians of Northern European descent that protects against human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is wrong.

    The hypothesis suggests that the mutation conferred resistance against bubonic plague in the Middle Ages, much as it does against HIV today. This idea was based on the fact that the mutation first appeared around the same time that the "Black Death" plague epidemic killed a third of Europe's population in the years 1346–1352. Since HIV was not present in Europe at this time, individuals with the mutation must have been protected against some other disease.

    Mosier performed studies that demonstrate that the mutation does not protect against plague infection in mouse models and that it is unlikely to have offered any protection against the plague in humans during the Middle Ages. [perhaps against smallpox, or maybe a completely random mutation ?]

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0212083108.htm
    Dunno whether there's anything more recent on this particular topic.
    'best,
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    LJ
    I would suggest that there are two factors which could account for this perception: firstly, as we learn a little more (but still nowhere near enough, certainly) about the Varroa mite, then our expectations become greater - in essence the bar becomes gradually raised such that we now expect total, or near total eradication from whatever treatment is being used. We compare treatments: we monitor the mite fall; we have developed methods of determining levels of infestation; resistance to some systemic miticides have indeed occurred - none of these existed 20-30 years ago, and so as a result there is a perception that the problem is actually worsening.
    I am the dumbest guy to comment on this thread and so what I say has no meaning from me but is just an observation. I saw a randy oliver vidio I think in Europe or NZ. I can not even remember the treatment they were talking about but do remember it pertained to a 97 percent kill rate of mites. Randy put out the position that a high kill rate would speed the rate of resistance to the treatment compared to something with a smaller percentage of kill rate.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by tbishop View Post
    I believe you are experiencing a "mite bomb" year. Last year did your area experience heavy swarming. If so, your bees may be robbing those feral hives out and that is why you are having problems with mite levels. This is what I have dealt with here in Indiana over the last 20 years. It has taken me this long to figure out what what was going on. I use Apivar during this time to help control the mite influx.. In late October I will hit with OA.
    Sorry for the delayed reply tbishop - that's an interesting thought. I did have a lot of swarms this year, as in, nearly all my stronger hives and nucs. You may very well be right in that the swarms are getting robbed out and introducing additional mites.
    Beekeeping 6 Years - 12 production hives and about 12 nucs - Treatment OAV Only

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericweller View Post
    e-spice. This is exactly why I changed my fall treatment from OAV to a thymol based product. My first year, I had great results with OAV but after that my losses were over 60%. I still do a winter treatment with OAV but my fall treatments are with a more effective product.
    I'm leaning toward trying that eric. Are you referring to Apiguard?
    Beekeeping 6 Years - 12 production hives and about 12 nucs - Treatment OAV Only

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Randy put out the position that a high kill rate would speed the rate of resistance to the treatment compared to something with a smaller percentage of kill rate.
    I think it was NZ

    I will challenge the OA applicators now - do you know about and do you have absolute control at all times of the OA concentrations in every single hive (AND in every single corner of that hive) while it is being treated?
    with dribble, yes.
    Rademacher EtAl 2017
    In order to reach high efficacy, the ingredient acting by contact must be distributed in the colony.
    The distribution of OAD was shown by macroCT. The results of the roentgenoscopy showed high
    density values for the individual bees in the test, much higher than in the control measurement. A good
    distribution was already achieved after 10 min; this could be documented in the central and boundary
    areas of the combs. Lower density values in the central comb areas compared to the boundary regions
    obtained after thirty minutes reflected the movement of the bees. After thirty minutes the density
    was generally lower, which led us to the assumption that OAD was now also spread to the material,
    e.g., the wall of the hive. Bees have constant contact with the hive material; therefore, OAD can be
    distributed again onto the bees, maintaining a long-term contact with the acid. OAD on hive material
    can be found even several months after application [18]. The macroCT analysis demonstrated a rapid
    and consistent distribution of OAD involving a reduction of the individual dosage over time. Even
    after 14 days, the density of the bees was still significantly higher than prior to treatment, indicating
    a potential efficacy of at least up to 14 days. The results from the field trials, where the maximum
    efficacy against mites was reached ten days after treatment, support this assumption
    More importantly then all over the hive, its spread to every bee.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    LJ
    I saw a randy oliver vidio I think in Europe or NZ. I can not even remember the treatment they were talking about but do remember it pertained to a 97 percent kill rate of mites. Randy put out the position that a high kill rate would speed the rate of resistance to the treatment compared to something with a smaller percentage of kill rate.
    Cheers
    gww
    Hiya
    That assumes that the survivors 'actually survived the treatment', as opposed to simply not being killed during the process of treatment. The best example of this being mites protected by having been located within a capped brood cell during VOA treatment. They are not killed by the treatment, but are no more likely to have developed a resistance to it than those which died. Yet they are - in a sense - survivors.

    In the same way, small numbers of colonies of AMM 'survived' the ravages of the tracheal mite within the British Isles during the 1920's, when most colonies were wiped-out. But did they survive those mites by virtue of having a genetic difference, or did they simply not come into contact with sufficient numbers of mites ? I think it's significant that those colonies which survived were located at the 'extremities' of the island group (relative to the initial outbreak), such as in Western Ireland and Northern Scotland. Yet AMM enthusiasts claim that these colonies are 'survivor stock'. In one sense, they are - but in another sense they're not.

    Same with Randy's 3% of 'survivors' - if they actually survived the treatment, then yes - the numbers of genetic mutants (or whatever caused their survival) will quickly become concentrated - but if they've somehow simply avoided being killed, then nothing will have changed.

    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I think it was NZ


    with dribble, yes.
    Rademacher EtAl 2017
    More importantly then all over the hive, its spread to every bee.
    re: this statement: I will challenge the OA applicators now - do you know about and do you have absolute control at all times of the OA concentrations in every single hive (AND in every single corner of that hive) while it is being treated?

    YES i know about and at all times , on every single hive
    I am going for the "assist" i know i do not kill all and am ok with that. (ie small kill rate)

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    I will challenge the OA applicators now - do you know about and do you have absolute control at all times of the OA concentrations in every single hive (AND in every single corner of that hive) while it is being treated?
    And does it happen EVERYWHERE and at EVERY single application FOREVER and EVER for years and years to come (the 100% mite kill efficiency, to clarify)?

    I can not believe someone will seriously and honestly say - YES.

    Because the YES means - we should not be having the mites in the years 2019/2020 anymore everywhere.
    Basically of this immediate writing.

    The mites should be ALL killed and done with and forgotten about and there is nothing to talk about.
    We have 100% effective formulations and methods of applications of those organic and natural acids (OA and FA) available.

    I don't get what is the problem still on hand and why is the talk?
    What? We still have mites?
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    " Even after 14 days, the density of the bees was still significantly higher than prior to treatment, indicating
    a potential efficacy of at least up to 14 days."

    Is this "on" the bees rather than "of" ?

    Does not match the real world; Not seeing anyone saying I treat the 1st time on day one and again on day 14 with great results.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    And does it happen EVERYWHERE and at EVERY single application FOREVER and EVER for years and years to come (the 100% mite kill efficiency, to clarify)?

    I can not believe someone will seriously and honestly say - YES.

    Because the YES means - we should not be having the mites in the years 2019/2020 anymore everywhere.
    Basically of this immediate writing.

    The mites should be ALL killed and done with and forgotten about and there is nothing to talk about.
    We have 100% effective formulations and methods of applications of those organic and natural acids (OA and FA) available.

    I don't get what is the problem still on hand and why is the talk?
    What? We still have mites?
    Greg, I read the question "do I know the concentrations of OA, in all places." YES I Do. on the lid 0%, on the Floor 0, in the corners 0, in the spot I placed the GlyOA pad 25g in every Hive same pad ,same amount. I know how much is where. So hence my answer. Nothing about kill % in the question I answered. And I do not care, the way I do it it is a little help, the bees need to do the rest.
    GG

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    Does not match the real world; Not seeing anyone saying I treat the 1st time on day one and again on day 14 with great results.
    I would counter most of those talking are (fad) OAV users, dribble is much different, kills mites much longer, kills many more mites in a brood on situation because of this.
    And that bring a good point to mind, the old Tx schedules were based on dribble, and the climbing number of Tx with OAV may be do to its limited effectiveness with brood on ,it does gain a few points broodless and kills more mites, but its short action period (2 or so days) limits it efectness when there are mites emerging daily

    here is me from a year ago

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    OAV kills more mites in a brood less situation, but OA trickle drops mites for a longer peirod of time... ie mite peak drop is usaly 6 or so days. Studys are showing that when used brood on it kills more mites, it seems the longer action time alows it to contact more mites as they emerge and thus kill more mites even thow it kills a lower prestantage of mites exposed to it

    Significantly more mites fell six days after OA application than 2 or 4 days after OA application. This statistic may be interpreted several ways. One interpretation is that OA has residual activity against varroa for at least six days post-treatment. Charrière et al. (2004) and Gregorc and Planinc (2004) report that mite fall can occur over a 3 week period in hives treated with OA Aliano 2008 refereeing trickle https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...tomologyfacpub

    compare that to the 3 or so day drop OAV study's often report. Attachment 41865 Oliver 2018 The Varroa Problem: Part 15
    One of the easy ways to see this effect is in Giacomelli 2013 Honey bee queen caging: the artificial absence of brood as a strategy for varroatosis containment
    were they are testing oav and trickle on hives with and with out a brood break
    Attachment 41861
    Attachment 41863
    brood on OAV killed 6.81% more mites then the control, trickle killed 49.36% more mites then control
    when you flip to brood less oav killed 640.97% more mite then control and trickle only killed 465.82% more then control.
    Studys show OAV kills more mites in a brood less situation, but OA trickle drops mites for a longer peirod of time... ie mite peak drop is usaly 6 or so days. Studys are showing that when used brood on it kills more mites, it seems the longer action time alows it to contact more mites as they emerge and thus kill more mites even thow it kills a lower prestantage of mites exposed to it

    "Significantly more mites fell six days after OA application than 2 or 4 days after OA application. This statistic may be interpreted several ways. One interpretation is that OA has residual activity against varroa for at least six days post-treatment. Charrière et al. (2004) and Gregorc and Planinc (2004) report that mite fall can occur over a 3 week period in hives treated with OA Aliano 2008 refereeing trickle https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...tomologyfacpub"

    Randy Oliver starting to release info about his small scale trial putting them head to head on bee l, and his results backing the above studys I thought I would open a full topic on it
    "I can share some data from a recent experiment in which I tracked mite drop and alcohol wash counts in four test hives, full of brood, in late spring. Two hives were vaporized (one with a Varrox, one with Provape 110), and two dribbled with OA in solution (one with 1:1 water : sugar, the other with 1:1 water: glycerin). I then reapplied the vaporizations (but not the dribbles) at days 10 and 19.

    The glycerin dribble caused by far the greatest initial increase in mite drop--the other three were about the same. The two dribbles resulted in the best mite reduction initially, but by Day 26, all four colonies exhibited roughly 50% reductions in their alcohol wash counts from baseline--after a single dribble, compared to three vaporizations at roughly 10-day intervals. Keep in mind, that there was an n of only one for each treatment, so don't run too far with this data.

    The above results suggest that the added humectants increased the efficacy of the OA greatly--initially as well as over time, and indicate that the
    effect of the crystals from vaporization is very short term (this is supported by Saskia Schneider's findings)". http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...L&D=0&P=115030

    it took 3 OAVs to have the same effect as one dribble

    The 1st response from many will be the OAV wasn't done right, ie "why 10 days apart instead of the more standard 4-7 often given" the answer is here http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-...oblem-part-15/
    The good news for many is the high speed type vaporizers did not seem to suffer performance compared to the slow pan type!
    as he said, don't run too far with with it, hopefully there is a larger trial coming.. along with a article with deeper details

  21. #60

    Default Re: Is it tougher and tougher to control mites with OAV?

    I eagerly wait how long we have to wait for the first attack against OAD, by the OAV users...

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