OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations - Page 3
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 47 of 47
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
    Posts
    1,718

    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    One would think that if a significant amount of OA was floating around for some time you would think it would not be necessary to treat with OAV so often as we do. If the bees cart all the crystals out of the hive surely they will cart any away from the honey as well. I am sure that loose crystals will not easily dissolve in honey so it is all guesswork unless someone is willing to pay to play.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Northern Colorado, USA
    Posts
    555

    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by John Davis View Post
    A couple of replies reference formic acid entering the cappings.
    This is not correct for honey.
    Formic vapors go through the brood cappings which are porous.
    Formic is not soluable in beeswax so does not pass through the honey cappings which are solid wax.
    That is why it is labeled as OK to use with honey supers on.
    I am not sure the cappings are as solid as you think. There are several people on here who places a box fan blowing thru supers to dry them out, so there is atleas some porosity in the cappings. Honey cappings are probally less porous than brood cappings, but I dont think they are completely air tight. Formic acid does have a larger molecule size than water (and N2, O2) but it may still slowly travel thru wax.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,450

    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by Schultz View Post
    Are you allowed to treat with OAV in Europe with the supers on?
    Well, I'm not a honey farmer - so perhaps not the best person to answer this ... but 'allowed' by whom ? No-one controls beekeeping practices - the only 'controls' in existence relate to the honey product, especially with regard to it's description and labelling.

    I spent an hour or so last night reading through the various 'Directives' from the EU mandarins, and it would appear that they only view honey as being 'honey' after it's been extracted - so that all the rules and regs about purity/ adulteration and so on are directed at traders: processors/ packers/ distributors and importers.

    There are no 'rules' or Codes of Conduct for beekeepers that I could find, or have ever been aware of. The only exception to this - for the beekeepers who are also sellers of honey - is that the honey must not have anything removed from it (such as pollen) or be heat-treated, unless the labelling clearly states this. Similarly, nothing must be added to the extracted honey. (Adulteration with sugars being the BIG concern here)

    Compositional criteria:
    [...] honey consists essentially of different sugars, predominantly fructose and glucose, as well as other substances such as organic acids, enzymes and solid particles derived from honey(sic) collection.
    (perhaps someone should advise the mandarins that bees don't actually 'collect' honey - they make it)

    Detection of adulterants is key. The presence of an antibiotic, for example, would be straightforward enough to detect. Added sugars still present much difficulty, especially if fed to the bees rather than added to harvested honey afterwards. Detection of added Oxalic Acid is impossible, due to it having a variable concentration within multi-floral or blended honeys.

    Because there is no such thing as 'standard' honey, adulteration remains a widespread practice, especially common with imported honey. For home-produced honey, much remains down to the integrity of the individual beekeeper.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Powhatan, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    360

    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Elmer
    You are correct that you can lower moisture in honey that is not fully capped by "using a box fan to blow air through the supers".
    You should not have to lower moisture on fully capped honey.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    247

    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    I just used a single treatment in the calculations and several will of course multiply the totals. The point I am trying to make (as you are) is that the exposure is really quite small. Although the exposure is small, it does not mean any beekeeper should allow it to happen in the first place. Avoiding the exposure is easy. Just slide a piece of cardboard between the boxes or remove the super during treatment. That takes just seconds of time to accomplish. When I sell my honey, I can promise the cleanest honey on the market. I sell a superior product, no shortcuts, no avoidable contamination and a clean conscience that I have been truthful to every buyer. My entire honey crop for this year (from 20+ hives) is already sold. My sales are all retail and one bottle at a time. My clients have been contacting me since February waiting for it to come in. Why would I want to screw that up?

    Once you start compromising in the quality of the product, where does it end? Would we be having this conversation if it was just a little bit of rat poop or mouse urine? My name and reputation is on every bottle I sell. I will not allow any compromise with the quality.

    OAV and honey supers present is mostly an issue for those beekeepers who live in locations without a dearth. In locations with an obvious dearth, it's not going to be much of a challenge to treat without honey supers. I agree there's no point in needlessly adding OA to honey if one can just wait until a dearth.

    The statement that adding cardboard between honey supers and hives is "easy" assumes its just a handful of hives. What if there's 50 hives? That's a very time consuming process, and a major PITA.
    Last edited by username00101; 08-08-2019 at 08:18 AM.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Covington County, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    1,509

    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    I just used a single treatment in the calculations and several will of course multiply the totals. The point I am trying to make (as you are) is that the exposure is really quite small. Although the exposure is small, it does not mean any beekeeper should allow it to happen in the first place. Avoiding the exposure is easy. Just slide a piece of cardboard between the boxes or remove the super during treatment. That takes just seconds of time to accomplish. When I sell my honey, I can promise the cleanest honey on the market. I sell a superior product, no shortcuts, no avoidable contamination and a clean conscience that I have been truthful to every buyer. My entire honey crop for this year (from 20+ hives) is already sold. My sales are all retail and one bottle at a time. My clients have been contacting me since February waiting for it to come in. Why would I want to screw that up?

    Once you start compromising in the quality of the product, where does it end? Would we be having this conversation if it was just a little bit of rat poop or mouse urine? My name and reputation is on every bottle I sell. I will not allow any compromise with the quality.
    Dudelt: I agree with your sentiments exactly. I do not use OAV with honey supers on. I have my suspicions that it would not harmfully impact the honey if I did. But I don't because it is not a registered use. I also don't because I can do as many back of the napkin calculations that I want to, but I will never know until verified research and testing are performed.

    My question (and the question I want to bring to the thread) is whether you would still feel this way if verified, peer-reviewed research and testing from institutions you respected ever showed that OAV with supers in place did not create elevated amounts of OA or that nominal OA amounts were detected but were clearly not harmful to consumption AND the EPA dropped the "no supers in place" prohibition on the approved label?

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."

    "READ THIS LABEL: Read the entire label. This product must be used strictly in accordance with this label’s precautionary statements and use directions, as well as with all applicable State and Federal laws and regulations."

    "USE RESTRICTIONS:

    Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey."

    cite: https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...1-20151013.pdf


    like it or not, agree with it or not, fuzzy math disproven or not, at this point in time this label is the law and none of the above will exempt one from the consequences should you be found in violation of it.

    notice also that there is no provision in the label for the placement of a 'barrier' between the honey supers and the rest of the hive receiving the treatment.

    comments, suggestions, and/or advice given here on the forum that is contradictory to these label restrictions (thereby promoting the violation of u.s. federal law) in my view cross a line with respect to promoting responsible content here on the forum.

    going forward any such content will be edited.

    see: https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...traction-Blues
    Last edited by squarepeg; 09-06-2019 at 08:28 PM.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •