OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by Bdfarmer555 View Post
    This is it...

    While logically, I agree username, the reality is that the American consumer doesn't care about boring calculations or studies. It's all about headlines. And if those headlines become "Beekeepers across America are selling honey tainted with chemicals used to kill mites", your honey will be as attractive as roundup ready soybeans.

    More often than not, common sense has no place in marketing...
    THIS

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    After decades of use in Europe, and 9 years since approval in Canada I find it hard to believe that this question has not been looked at closely and tested already. There must be a reason that the labels still warn users to not use it with supers on, to avoid contaminating marketable honey.

    My guess is that there are some tests that were performed in Europe years ago that raised questions and triggered a warning to be included with the instructions. Something prompted the warning, or it wouldn't be there. I could be way off, might just be liability protection.
    To everything there is a season....

  4. #23
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    I recall reading somewhere??? that the Canadians (whose the US just copied) decided not to allow OAV treatment with honey supers on so that it could be stated that the honey was "untreated."
    I'll see if I can again find it....
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  5. #24
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    I read somewhere that the decision to not allow treating with honey supers on was to avoid the delays testing would incur.
    The liability issues mentioned above probably weighed it down also.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    A couple of replies reference formic acid entering the cappings.
    This is not correct for honey.
    Formic vapors go through the brood cappings which are porous.
    Formic is not soluable in beeswax so does not pass through the honey cappings which are solid wax.
    That is why it is labeled as OK to use with honey supers on.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Oxalic Acid is already in the honey - it's a natural constituent of it. So - you'd better not sell any honey then ?
    LJ
    doing 4 oav treatments significantly adds the possibly of higher concentrations then naturally present. Esp in uncapped honey.
    Terrence

  8. #27
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by MJC417 View Post
    Formic goes under the cappings, I wouldn't eat or sell honey that was exposed to formic either. Have you ever smelled formic vapors?
    Referring to thymol. Important part is residual left over after treatments.
    Terrence

  9. #28
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by Bdfarmer555 View Post
    This is it...

    While logically, I agree username, the reality is that the American consumer doesn't care about boring calculations or studies. It's all about headlines. And if those headlines become "Beekeepers across America are selling honey tainted with chemicals used to kill mites", your honey will be as attractive as roundup ready soybeans.

    More often than not, common sense has no place in marketing...
    well said. Even now people ask me if i "treat" my hives with chemicals when asking about honey. They have no clue and think we are dousing it with Diazanon or the like. If something like this hit the headlines i'm pretty sure all the people eating our honey would be second guessing and we'd have to start marking our bottles all due to some people not following the law.
    Terrence

  10. #29
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    Something prompted the warning, or it wouldn't be there. I could be way off, might just be liability protection.
    I agree with Mike's statement above, but then we all live with warnings of all kinds, everyday. Whether they are printed on a product label or in a medical journal, warnings are out there. Too much sugar, caffeine, red meat, etc. the list is endless. We all make choices in life that affect our health for good or bad, and they can affect others too.....it's our choice.

    I've never treated hives with OA with supers on. In the future I could change my mind...or not........that will be my secret.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    doing 4 oav treatments significantly adds the possibly of higher concentrations then naturally present. Esp in uncapped honey.
    Honey without OAV treatment is listed as a "low oxalic acid food". Reference.


    Treating with OA vaporization will increase oxalic acid in honey. After a full round of OAV treatments, 1 pound of honey may contain as much Oxalic acid as 1 serving of carrot juice, or 1 serving of figs.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Reference



    Link is a PDF list of oxalic acid content of foods. Note that 1 cup of soymilk contains 5X+ more oxalic acid than 1 pound of honey following a full round of 5 OAV treatments.


    Below are some examples of foods which contain more oxalic acid than 1 lb of honey following treatment with OAV:


    Product Portion // Oxalic acid content (mg)

    Soy beverage 1 cup 336 mg
    Soy nuts 1 ounce 392 mg
    Soy yogurt 1 cup 113 mg
    Textured Vegetable Protein (TVP) 3 ounces 496 mg
    Tofu (firm with calcium) 3 ounces 235
    Potato 1 97 mg
    Onions 1 small 0 mg Rhubarb cup 541 mg
    Radish 10 0 mg Spinach (cooked) cup 755 mg
    Rapini (chopped) 1 cup 4 mg Spinach (raw) 1 cup 656 mg
    Almond 22 kernels 122 mg
    Hot chocolate 1 cup 65 mg
    Beans (navy) cup 76 mg
    Beets cup 76 mg
    Raspberries 1 cup 48 mg
    Last edited by username00101; 08-07-2019 at 10:10 AM.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    I like the calculation but I will make the claim that you have way overstated the potential contamination in a pound of honey. Thus, here are my calculations. I do love a good math problem!

    Assumptions: The hive consists of two 10 frame deep boxes, one 10 frame medium super, cover, bottom board, 20 deep frames and 10 medium frames. You will be vaporizing with the super on and will contaminate your honey.

    Calculations:

    The two brood boxes have 4 front/back panels that are 16 x 19 inches. Total surface area 152 sq. inches per side, total surface area is 608 sq. inches

    The two brood boxes have 4 side panels that are 19 x 9.5 inches. Total surface area 180.5 sq. inches per side, total surface area is 722 sq. inches

    The one medium super has 2 front/back panels that are 16 x 6.5 inches. Surface area 104 sq. inches per side, total surface area is 208 sq. inches

    The one medium super has 2 side panels that are 19 x 6.5 inches. Surface area 123.5 sq. inches per side, total surface area is 247 sq. inches

    There are 20 deep frames with foundation. The foundation/comb is 8.5 inches x 17 inches. The surface area per side is 144.5 inches x 2 sides x 20 units. Total surface area of 20 frames is 5,780 sq. inches.

    There are 10 medium frames with foundation. The foundation/comb is 5.5 inches x 17 inches. The surface area per side is 93.5 inches x 2 sides x 10 units. Total surface area of 10 frames is 1,870 sq. inches.

    The inner cover and the bottom board are each 16 x 19 and together have a total surface area of 608 sq. inches

    Finally, there are 30,000 bees in the hive (some are out foraging), each has about .5 sq. inches of surface area. Total surface area of the bees is 15,000 sq. inches

    Total surface area inside the hive is 25,043 sq. inches. If the OA is distributed evenly and you vaporize 3 grams (1 gram per box or 3,000 milligrams total) each square inch of the hive will receive 0.12 milligrams of OA. Since the frames are 93.5 sq. inches per side (187 total sq. inches), each frame will receive 22.40 milligrams of OA. Since each frame has about 5 pounds of honey, each pound will get about 4.48 Mg of OA contamination (if uncapped).

    Please note that the surface areas are all close estimates. The inside of the boxes is slightly smaller than stated and I did not use the surface area of the frames themselves, only the facing of the foundation. Empty comb is not a flat face and has much more surface area. The honey will only get exposed to the OA if it is uncapped. Capped honey is protected and will not get contaminated directly.

    The bottom line is this, using OAV with the supers on WILL contaminate your honey. So why do it? Make your product pure and uncontaminated. It only takes a few seconds to seal off a super if you are going to vaporize so there is no reason to not do so.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post

    Since each frame has about 5 pounds of honey, each pound will get about 4.48 Mg of OA contamination (if uncapped).

    Please note that the surface areas are all close estimates. The inside of the boxes is slightly smaller than stated and I did not use the surface area of the frames themselves, only the facing of the foundation. Empty comb is not a flat face and has much more surface area. The honey will only get exposed to the OA if it is uncapped. Capped honey is protected and will not get contaminated directly.

    The bottom line is this, using OAV with the supers on WILL contaminate your honey. So why do it? Make your product pure and uncontaminated. It only takes a few seconds to seal off a super if you are going to vaporize so there is no reason to not do so.
    Do your calculations assume 1 treatment with 3g, or 5 treatments with 3g of OA? Looks like 5mg per treatment of 3g/hive? Which brings the total up to 25mg/1lb of honey after a full round of OAV?

    I agree that oxalic acid will "contaminate" honey from its original state, but the end result is no more "dangerous" than half of a potato.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    After decades of use in Europe, and 9 years since approval in Canada I find it hard to believe that this question has not been looked at closely and tested already. There must be a reason that the labels still warn users to not use it with supers on, to avoid contaminating marketable honey.

    My guess is that there are some tests that were performed in Europe years ago that raised questions and triggered a warning to be included with the instructions. Something prompted the warning, or it wouldn't be there. I could be way off, might just be liability protection.
    I don't think this is the case Mike. There is no money in this. Wood bleach is cheap, its everywhere and you do not need a prescription to use it. The whole bit about getting a label was necessary for EPA approval of its use, but commercially was a joke. Thank you Brushy Mountain (R.I.P.) Most of us use the off-label stuff we find in the hardware stores. For it to be approved, it must be tested. For it to be tested, there must be a financial backer and money to be made. There is no money in this and I can't see how there ever will be. (Unless Larry will come off the millions he is making selling the vaporizers!)

    Randy Oliver is submitting OA content in honey data for his use of OA in his shop cloth experiments. I am unclear whether his efforts will result in approval for use with honey supers on for an OAV application or a dribble application, since he seems to be focused on a substrate for long-term exposure.

    I believe the solution may be to work through a university's bee lab. Hopefully, we can find a PhD student who can take this on and get it approved as his/her thesis project. Maybe get some university money toward it, a grant or even a kickstarter. We need to get an organization like EAS or ABF to support and fundraise an effort. It will be a huge service to all beekeepers.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    Do your calculations assume 1 treatment with 3g, or 5 treatments with 3g of OA? Looks like 5mg per treatment of 3g/hive? Which brings the total up to 25mg/1lb of honey after a full round of OAV?

    I agree that oxalic acid will "contaminate" honey from its original state, but the end result is no more "dangerous" than half of a potato.
    I just used a single treatment in the calculations and several will of course multiply the totals. The point I am trying to make (as you are) is that the exposure is really quite small. Although the exposure is small, it does not mean any beekeeper should allow it to happen in the first place. Avoiding the exposure is easy. Just slide a piece of cardboard between the boxes or remove the super during treatment. That takes just seconds of time to accomplish. When I sell my honey, I can promise the cleanest honey on the market. I sell a superior product, no shortcuts, no avoidable contamination and a clean conscience that I have been truthful to every buyer. My entire honey crop for this year (from 20+ hives) is already sold. My sales are all retail and one bottle at a time. My clients have been contacting me since February waiting for it to come in. Why would I want to screw that up?

    Once you start compromising in the quality of the product, where does it end? Would we be having this conversation if it was just a little bit of rat poop or mouse urine? My name and reputation is on every bottle I sell. I will not allow any compromise with the quality.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    Honey without OAV treatment is listed as a "low oxalic acid food". Reference.


    Treating with OA vaporization will increase oxalic acid in honey. After a full round of OAV treatments, 1 pound of honey may contain as much Oxalic acid as 1 serving of carrot juice, or 1 serving of figs.
    An actual scientific lab test will verify your findings if you can find one. I suspect, depending on where the honey is located in the hive, will also change the amounts.
    I'm not disputing that your calculations are less then other edible foods. I'm contesting taking a mite control that is approved for use and deliberately use it in a way contrary to instructions. Why because you don't feel like lifting supers? Lazy? Stick in a removable cloak board.
    I have no care in the world if you are keeping this honey for your family but if it could affect the way others sell honey you really need to think of the larger affects
    Terrence

  18. #37
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Are you allowed to treat with OAV in Europe with the supers on?

  19. #38
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    I'm no scientist for sure, but it seems this would be a fairly simple test to perform with the appropriate testing equipment available.

    Pull an uncapped frame of honey/nectar and remove the liquid from a certain number of cells or square inches of comb area. Replace the frame and perform an OAV treatment. Immediately pull the frame and remove an equal amount of liquid from adjacent cells.

    Test both samples for the amount of OA present with equal volume/weight and compare the two.

    What am I missing?
    To everything there is a season....

  20. #39
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    I'm no scientist for sure, but it seems this would be a fairly simple test to perform with the appropriate testing equipment available.

    Pull an uncapped frame of honey/nectar and remove the liquid from a certain number of cells or square inches of comb area. Replace the frame and perform an OAV treatment. Immediately pull the frame and remove an equal amount of liquid from adjacent cells.

    Test both samples for the amount of OA present with equal volume/weight and compare the two.

    What am I missing?
    Nothing. I think you need some controls in place. You will need similar nectar sources for all hives within a testing group so there is no natural OA differential. I think you would need several hives in multiple apiaries at locations distant from one another.

    For instance, Auburn University in Auburn, Alabama has a bee lab. So does the University of Georgia at Athens, Georgia and the University of Florida in Gainesville, Florida. 40 hives at each lab. At each location, you would have a control set with no OAV treatments, a set with a single OAV treatment, a set with 3X/7days OAV treatments, maybe even as set with a OAV treatment once a week for 6 months. You might want to have sets with varying does of OA that is being sublimated. All of that can be sorted among the labs. After the treatment protocol for any particular set, you pull and test a frame honey 24 hours after treatment, then 48 hours, then 10 days, then 30 days, then 90 days, etc. to establish the dissipation rate of the OA over time.

    Obviously, all this data is compared with the control set to establish the base line OA naturally occurring in the honey.

    That should establish exactly what we will be eating when we consume X grams/ounces of honey that has been treated in a certain manner and consumed within a certain amount of days after that treatment.

    Then I suppose we need to establish whether that amount is harmful. If, as username proposes, it is less than the average serving of rhubarb, then I think our inquiry is likely done.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: OA vaporization is probably safe with honey supers - here's my calculations

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    doing 4 oav treatments significantly adds the possibly of higher concentrations then naturally present. Esp in uncapped honey.
    Possibly a higher concentration, key word possibly as so far no one has shown what the amounts before, after treatment, in the honey.

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