OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    There was an article in the ABJ some time back when a beekeeper did a bunch of tests with OA crystals being place on mites that he had glued to pins, some were upside down and a few crystals were placed on their legs others the crystals were placed on the hair on their backs. In both cases the mites died fairly quickly so the contact certainly makes a difference. As to the OA sublimating, sure it sublimate but is crystalising again as it comes out of my vaporizers outlet and I have posted pictures of the outlet of the vaporizer being held about 3 " from my forearm where the minute crystals are adhering to the hairs on my arm in large amounts and it has already cooled so much that there is no discomfort to the skin on my arm. Back in those days I was still trying to see if the OA would break down sufficiently to create formic acid so I used a paper particle mask to see if I could sense any smell of formic acid in the OA plume and I smelled neither the OA or formic. But it all seems to come back to the fact that there is more we really do not know than we do know.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    If not gasified (or converted to gas), I don't know how we can use the term "sublimated" when discussing the OAV process.
    'Sublimated' simply means changing from one state (solid) into another (gaseous) without passing through the intermediate state (liquid).

    So - with water we have: ICE > WATER > STEAM.

    But with OA we have: SOLID > VAPOUR (no intermediate state)

    Now steam isn't that white stuff we see clouds of, when a kettle is left to boil over - the steam is the first inch or so of invisible gas which exists at the spout. As soon as it cools a little, it changes back to it's previous state and becomes visible again as a white cloud. Now in everyday language we call that white stuff 'steam' but strictly speaking it isn't - it's become water again, but now in a microfine liquid state.

    Oxalic Acid when heated sublimates into a gaseous state, but is similar to water insomuch as that gas (or vapour) is invisible. Just as with water, as soon as it cools a little, it reverts to it's previous state - only this time not to a liquid (because it doesn't have a liquid state), but directly back to a solid - and thus becomes visible once again, but now as a white cloud of micro-fine crystalline dust.

    The whole point of the exercise is to turn rather large crystals of a damp, clumpy organic acid into an ultra lightweight dust which can then spread out over a relatively large area leaving it with a thin covering of OA. Turning it into a gaseous state for a few thousandths of a second is an ideal way of doing this, as one of the properties of gases (going back to Chemistry 101 here !) is that they expand to fit the container they're held in. This occurs because each molecule of gas has kinetic energy which causes it to bounce off neighbouring gaseous molecules, and so the gas spreads outwards accordingly.

    So - in the case of Oxalic Acid vapour which cools back down below it's sublimation point - which will occur just a few millimetres away from the hot surface which initially caused it to change it's state - the micro-fine crystals which are formed will be one molecule of OA in size.

    But the story doesn't end there. Two further things will happen: firstly, solid objects always attract each other by gravitational forces - this can readily be seen in space with planetary systems, and is how we can walk around on the Earth's surface rather than levitate up into the heavens.
    With OA, the micro-fine crystals just generated will begin to attract each other and thus become larger.

    Secondly, you'll be aware that Oxalic Acid is supplied as a Dihydrate - meaning that there are water molecules attached to the OA crystals. (Yes, when you purchase OA, you're also paying for water !)

    Now the OA micro-fine crystals whiuch were formed by vapourisation (a process which will have stripped-off it's 'Dihydrate' water molecules) are now hygroscopic, and so will gradually attract moisture from the atmosphere to form slightly larger Oxalic Acid Dihydrate crystals, but in a significantly smaller crystalline form than when the process was first started.

    Which is why I much prefer the abbreviation VOA - Vapourised (past tense) Oxalic Acid, rather than OAV - Oxalic Acid Vapour or Vapourisation - the latter implying that the vapour continues to exist - which it doesn't - it only exists as a vapour for a few milliseconds. In the case of a Band Heater Vapouriser, the vapour only ever exists within the equipment, not outside of it.

    ... end of chemistry lecture ...

    Hope this has been helpful.
    LJ
    Last edited by little_john; 07-25-2019 at 03:02 AM.
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  4. #23
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    I think a more appropriate verb for what takes place when we stick a wand or other device loaded with OA crystals into a hive and heat them is aerosolization. Yes, it sublimates because it moves from solid to gas without first converting to liquid. But that is not the objective of the exercise. The objective is to aerosolize the crystals into the hive.

    I also do not have the same objections to the term vapor or vaporization that many do. I do not think the term "vapor" necessarily denotes a gas, but can refer to a mixture of gas, liquids and/or solids.

    So the white cloud we see leaking from our boxes: OA Vapor?; OA Mist?; OA Aerosol?

    My nerd flag is flying this morning.

  5. #24
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    When heated, doesn't the OA go into a liquid form before vapor? I'm sure there's an explanation, but it appears to me to go into a liquid state in the bowl first.
    To everything there is a season....

  6. #25
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    The following is JHMO. And, I am not making a recommendation, just reporting what I have found and what I consequently do:

    1st, I would not treat a hive with any "chemical" with honey supers on. While in some cases it may be okay to do so, there is no need to do so, so why do it? Pull the supers and then hammer the mites. At the very least, I do this for my own peace of mind and as a courtesy to my honey customers. Again, JMHO.

    2nd, I have experimented with different amounts of OA when I OAV my hives, and I have found that you can increase the OA dose substantially above the recommended 1g per deep without any noticeable harm to the bees. I've tried as much as 3x the recommended dose and not seen any ill affects to the bees. I am not saying there is any benefit to increasing the dose, just that the bees are relatively insensitive to OA dosage. And, I am not saying there is no upper limit to the dose, just that the standard 1g per deep is a conservative amount. YMMV.

    3rd, I have experimented with OAV intervals. I've done 7 day intervals, 5 day intervals, 4 days intervals, and 3 day intervals. I monitor mite fall with a white coroplast "witness" board at the bottom of the hive, checking the number of dead mites every 24 hours. I have found that the mite fall after an OAV treatment peaks at about 12-24 hours after a treatment. The mite fall usually tapers to about zero 3 days after an OAV treatment. I am not saying this is universal, just my own experience.

    4th, I have found that if I do a second OAV treatment the third day after an initial OAV treatment, I usually get a very large mite fall, in many cases equal to or larger than the mite fall after the first treatment. I interpret this to mean that the OAV treatment intervals based on the estimated phoretic period is flawed, and there are other things going on that we don't fully understand. So, it is better to base your mite treatment schedule on witnessed effects.

    Note that the above treatment info is for the Fall when there are pretty much no drones being produced. Also note that the worker bee larvae are capped for 11-12 days.

    Taking the results of the 2nd through 4th points, I OAV every three to four days (depending on my ability to get back to my hives) until I get a very small mite fall after a treatment as determined by monitoring the mite fall. Some hives take 3 treatments, some hives take up to 5 treatments to see that small mite fall.


    Treating for mites (I switched over to OA in the EPA-approved packaging when it became available):




    Witness board with mites:




    An example of tracking mite fall vs treatment interval in new packages. Since these are packages, the number of mites is relatively small:

    Last edited by shinbone; 07-25-2019 at 10:27 AM.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  7. #26
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    When heated, doesn't the OA go into a liquid form before vapor? I'm sure there's an explanation, but it appears to me to go into a liquid state in the bowl first.
    That's the water - the Dihydrate part - becoming separated from the OA and boiling off.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  8. #27
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    In the early winter of 2016 while I was working on producing a band heater vaporizer I would do many tests with different combinations to see and time the sublimation period of the device, so on these cool mornings sublimating 2 grams of OA would produce a plume of vapor that would slowly climb into the air. With the winter sun quite low on the horizon and as the plume lifted into the sunlight it would remind me of " Lucy in the sky with diamonds " the whole plume would start twinkling as the tiny moving crystals started reflecting the sunlight. It was then that I realized that the plume was a particle vapor which I again proved by sublimating onto my arm. This also led me to use a paper dust type of mask and I still do when required and then where is the research that came up with the story about only using masks suitable for organic acid gasses. I have also mentioned before that if it were not for the water in the OA molecule we would probably not have band heater vaporizers as it is the expansion of that water that provides the pressure to propel the OA crystals into the hive.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    So johno, is your take that one only needs a mask sufficient to filter fine particles and does not need a gas respirator?

  10. #29
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    When I am treating inside of closed small rooms such as my study with the observation hive or in the room with my 6 AZ hives I use a 3M 8511 or the other number is N95 which is a paper mask with a valve purchased from Ace Hardware. I also have one of the 3M respirators with cartridges but the paper one is far more comfortable to wear especially when it is hot. But folks should bear in mind that a poorly fitted paper mask is just as bad as a poorly fitted expensive mask. But more important I think is eye protection as you do not need this stuff to spray into your eyes, mask? outside only a fool would breathe the stuff in cause if you even get a whiff of the stuff hold your breath and move away upwind. We are all adults now so one should use whatever they feel safe with.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    When heated, doesn't the OA go into a liquid form before vapor? I'm sure there's an explanation, but it appears to me to go into a liquid state in the bowl first.
    As little John stated, the liquid is the water in the OA powder. OA does not have a liquid form under natural temperature and pressure. It is just like dry ice which turns into a gas with no liquid in between.

    Shinbone, that picture from treating a package is a small mite drop? That looks just terrible. However, the packages I treated a few years back looked like that too. My regular hives never look that bad any more.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    This is correct.

    I've been using the same mask for a couple of weeks now, can breath just fine through a cloud of OA crystals.


    https://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulat...ateway&sr=8-12

    https://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulat...s%2C128&sr=8-7

  13. #32
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    Shinbone, that picture from treating a package is a small mite drop? That looks just terrible. However, the packages I treated a few years back looked like that too. My regular hives never look that bad any more.
    The mite drop photo is from an established hive. I just threw it in there so folks would get a good idea of what a heavy mite drop looks like.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  14. #33
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    But the story doesn't end there. Two further things will happen: firstly, solid objects always attract each other by gravitational forces - this can readily be seen in space with planetary systems, and is how we can walk around on the Earth's surface rather than levitate up into the heavens.
    With OA, the micro-fine crystals just generated will begin to attract each other and thus become larger.


    ... end of chemistry lecture ...

    Hope this has been helpful.
    LJ
    The attraction of OA to each other to form bigger crystals is due to gravitational forces?

  15. #34
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    Are there any Europeans here who can confirm OA vaporization is safe with honey supers?

  16. #35
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post

    So the white cloud we see leaking from our boxes: OA Vapor?; OA Mist?; OA Aerosol?
    OA crystals. Think “baby powder.”
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  17. #36
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    I personally wouldn't rely on a paper mask when, for a few $s more, you can get the one below.
    I use one of these. https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Mediu...A1-C/202080144

    I just took the honey off so starting Aug 1 I'll be vaping on the ones and sixes of the month for a little over 3 weeks.
    So on the 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th, 21st, and maybe the 26th.
    Started April Fools Day 2017

  18. #37
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    R_V, I have one of those masks but prefer the paper one as it does the job just as well and is a lot more comfortable believe me.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo3 View Post
    The attraction of OA to each other to form bigger crystals is due to gravitational forces?
    Airborne crystals - yes.(*) If you berth two bl##dy great ships in a dock next to each other, just make sure you don't go swimming between them. Gravitational attraction occurs everywhere ...
    LJ

    (*) once they make physical contact, then electrons take over ...
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  20. #39
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    May 2016
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    Hot Springs, AR, USA
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    [QUOTE=little_john;1743865]'Sublimated' simply means changing from one state (solid) into another (gaseous) without passing through the intermediate state (liquid).

    So - with water we have: ICE > WATER > STEAM.

    But with OA we have: SOLID > VAPOUR (no intermediate state)

    Now steam isn't that white stuff we see clouds of, when a kettle is left to boil over - the steam is the first inch or so of invisible gas which exists at the spout. As soon as it cools a little, it changes back to it's previous state and becomes visible again as a white cloud. Now in everyday language we call that white stuff 'steam' but strictly speaking it isn't - it's become water again, but now in a microfine liquid state.

    Oxalic Acid when heated sublimates into a gaseous state, but is similar to water insomuch as that gas (or vapour) is invisible. Just as with water, as soon as it cools a little, it reverts to it's previous state - only this time not to a liquid (because it doesn't have a liquid state), but directly back to a solid - and thus becomes visible once again, but now as a white cloud of micro-fine crystalline dust.

    The whole point of the exercise is to turn rather large crystals of a damp, clumpy organic acid into an ultra lightweight dust which can then spread out over a relatively large area leaving it with a thin covering of OA. Turning it into a gaseous state for a few thousandths of a second is an ideal way of doing this, as one of the properties of gases (going back to Chemistry 101 here !) is that they expand to fit the container they're held in. This occurs because each molecule of gas has kinetic energy which causes it to bounce off neighbouring gaseous molecules, and so the gas spreads outwards accordingly.

    So - in the case of Oxalic Acid vapour which cools back down below it's sublimation point - which will occur just a few millimetres away from the hot surface which initially caused it to change it's state - the micro-fine crystals which are formed will be one molecule of OA in size.

    But the story doesn't end there. Two further things will happen: firstly, solid objects always attract each other by gravitational forces - this can readily be seen in space with planetary systems, and is how we can walk around on the Earth's surface rather than levitate up into the heavens.
    With OA, the micro-fine crystals just generated will begin to attract each other and thus become larger.

    Secondly, you'll be aware that Oxalic Acid is supplied as a Dihydrate - meaning that there are water molecules attached to the OA crystals. (Yes, when you purchase OA, you're also paying for water !)

    Now the OA micro-fine crystals whiuch were formed by vapourisation (a process which will have stripped-off it's 'Dihydrate' water molecules) are now hygroscopic, and so will gradually attract moisture from the atmosphere to form slightly larger Oxalic Acid Dihydrate crystals, but in a significantly smaller crystalline form than when the process was first started.

    Which is why I much prefer the abbreviation VOA - Vapourised (past tense) Oxalic Acid, rather than OAV - Oxalic Acid Vapour or Vapourisation - the latter implying that the vapour continues to exist - which it doesn't - it only exists as a vapour for a few milliseconds. In the case of a Band Heater Vapouriser, the vapour only ever exists within the equipment, not outside of it.

    ... end of chemistry lecture ...

    Hope this has been helpful.
    LJ[/QUOT
    Steam, definition, the vapor into which water is converted when heated, forming a white mist of minute water droplets in the air.

  21. #40
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    Mar 2015
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    Default Re: OA vape 5 days vs. 7 days apart - what do you recommend?

    These videos I made recently regarding OAV injected into the bottom vs top of a colony might be of interest to this thread. The second one shows the crystals that form.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5dk52VMUB8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTjPWW9Pe8

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