What do i call my queens?
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  1. #1
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    Default What do i call my queens?

    I'm breeding queens from stock I got last year. I was told they are Saskatraz. But if i'm open breeding and not in control of who they are mated with are they still "Saskatraz" or should i be calling them Saskatraz hybrids? At what point do i have something different? How many generations?
    Terrence

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Mutts from a Saskatraz queen.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    I'm breeding queens from stock I got last year. I was told they are Saskatraz. But if i'm open breeding and not in control of who they are mated with are they still "Saskatraz" or should i be calling them Saskatraz hybrids? At what point do i have something different? How many generations?
    Your new queens will producing some mutt bees that resulted from the open mating - these bees are conditionally ~50% Saskatraz.
    However, these same queens will be producing conditionally ~100% Saskatraz drones - so, this is in your interest to produce as many those drones as possible - so to influence bees in your vicinity if you want the genetics you bought to stick around (best bang for the money spent on your "Saskatraz" stock or whatever that is).

    Last year many beeks in my area bought into some "Saskatraz" stock - lots of that stock successfully died over the winter (which they should have theoretically survived).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  5. #4
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Your new queens will producing some mutt bees that resulted from the open mating - these bees are conditionally ~50% Saskatraz.
    However, these same queens will be producing conditionally ~100% Saskatraz drones - so, this is in your interest to produce as many those drones as possible - so to influence bees in your vicinity if you want the genetics you bought to stick around (best bang for the money spent on your "Saskatraz" stock or whatever that is).

    Last year many beeks in my area bought into some "Saskatraz" stock - lots of that stock successfully died over the winter (which they should have theoretically survived).
    This is the track i'm following. So lets say my original Saskatraz is 100 percent. Then the queens i made this year could be 50percent saskatraz. If i use those next year to breed then potentially 25 percent. I just want to accurately describe the queens so i guess Saskatraz mutts are best to describe them.
    Terrence

  6. #5
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    This is the track i'm following. So lets say my original Saskatraz is 100 percent. Then the queens i made this year could be 50percent saskatraz. If i use those next year to breed then potentially 25 percent. I just want to accurately describe the queens so i guess Saskatraz mutts are best to describe them.
    Pretty much once you queen is 25% Saska, it is also 75% NON-Saska.
    Random NON-Saska - to be sure.
    Hehehe.

    So anything below 50% is ..... what exactly?
    How can you honestly still label it to be a "Saska mutt"?
    Being honest anything below 50% is a random mutt and should be called exactly that (not a Saska mutt).

    The locally surviving mutt population is more important, whatever that amounts to be for your particular location - due to the locally important traits - not the commercial Saska label what matters.
    I guess some people like the shiny labels anyway; packaging still matters.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    I'll have to consider this next year when i'm doing queens. Thanks for the responses
    Terrence

  8. #7
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    I would say that your "Queens are openly-bred daughters of a Saskatraz Queen." At least for that first year. Can't get anymore truthful than that.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    I would say that your "Queens are openly-bred daughters of a Saskatraz Queen." At least for that first year. Can't get anymore truthful than that.
    That definitely sounds better i think. At least from a consumer angle a mutt is not as good as a bred animal.
    Terrence

  10. #9
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    So lets say my original Saskatraz is 100 percent.
    Only 50% if you got them from OHB. Robertson from Saskatchewan provides breeders for OHB. OHB open mates the daughters in California.

  11. #10

    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Only 50% if you got them from OHB. Robertson from Saskatchewan provides breeders for OHB. OHB open mates the daughters in California.
    I agree and I have heard that the name “Saskatraz” is trademarked. I would do some research before using that name in any advertising.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuttingedgelandinc View Post
    I agree and I have heard that the name “Saskatraz” is trademarked. I would do some research before using that name in any advertising.
    Looks like its not active.
    "On Wednesday, November 9, 2011, a U.S. federal trademark registration was filed for SASKATRAZ. The USPTO has given the SASKATRAZ trademark serial number of 85468144. The current federal status of this trademark filing is ABANDONED - FAILURE TO RESPOND OR LATE RESPONSE. "

    If they come knocking i'll claim my dyslexia and i'm really selling Zartaksas bees.
    Terrence

  13. #12
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Terrence, I have always thought that "locally adapted, open mated, survivor stock queens" was a pretty good way of describing any queen that I was proud of having raised. My bees are all mutts and seem to be getting more and more mutty. At least I can still work them without smoke, most of the time.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Terrence, I have always thought that "locally adapted, open mated, survivor stock queens" was a pretty good way of describing any queen that I was proud of having raised. My bees are all mutts and seem to be getting more and more mutty. At least I can still work them without smoke, most of the time.
    Yea personally i think these girls are amazing. almost hard to manage because the queens are such prolific layers and they pack the honey double wide. I started my 15 2 frame nucs with one frame of brood from one hive. no joke. i put in 5 foundations and a week later they are packed with eggs and larvae. but until i get a reputation like the big dogs for selling quality local mutts i know people look for a name. I did when i was starting out as we all have i'm sure. One of us is going to breed the golden queen one of these days that rips mites in half and drinks hive beetle blood for breakfast.
    Terrence

  15. #14
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Hi Terence.
    IF (big 'IF') your original queens were 100%-ers, then you could call your queens "F1 Saskatraz" - or "Saskatraz F1's".
    Although 'F1' is actually an abbreviation used to describe a first generation hybrid (i.e. having known 'pure-line' parents) - I think most people now consider it to be a shorthand description of any form of first generation progeny.

    Perhaps a better description would come from calling your queens by a unique name - such as: "New Hampshire Blacks" or "Derry Blacks" - if indeed they are black (I know nothing about this sub-type). Or - even append your own name to them ? Then - within any advert, add a small description outlining their origins.

    BTW, I'd never call them 'mutts' (even if they are) or "once-upon-a-time" anythings - as such terms are not exactly attractive to potential purchasers.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  16. #15
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Unsure why, but one important component of historic naming is lost.
    Did you all notice - how the historic names are location-attached?
    Caucasian Grays...
    Caucasian Yellows...
    Italians...
    Within Russia, there actually populations also called by the locality name (e.g. Baskirian, etc).
    The so-called Russian bee in the US (commercial name, really) - in Russia-proper it is called - Far Eastern bee (NOT Russian, which only makes sense in Russia).

    This makes sense because the specific location defines the bee that lives there.

    So - I would call mine - Southern Wisconsin Bee (not black, not yellow, not whatever - I can not control the coloring anyway).
    But I can control where my beehives are sitting around - that is called - locality (and whatever environment comes with it).

    If only those annual package trucks would stop coming.
    These year they were selling lots of "Russians" here...
    What mess and impossibility to actually create the "Southern Wisconsin Bee" because of it.
    Last edited by GregV; 07-20-2019 at 07:54 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    They're Kaizen Kustom Queens! Be proud of them, you took the time to raise queens from your best overwintered hives. The best queens I have are the ones I raise myself. What are Saskatraz queens anyway? What's the original source of bees, Carns / New Zealand/ Aussie queens? They're mutts to begin with. If I had to choose between your queens raised in NH and queens from California (and I'm not saying Cali queens are bad) I would pick yours first.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Only 50% if you got them from OHB. Robertson from Saskatchewan provides breeders for OHB. OHB open mates the daughters in California.
    When I first saw the title of this thread I thought, "Martha"!

  19. #18

    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by rkereid View Post
    When I first saw the title of this thread I thought, "Martha"!
    I thought Elizabeth.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  20. #19
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by rkereid View Post
    When I first saw the title of this thread I thought, "Martha"!

  21. #20
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    Default Re: What do i call my queens?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I thought Elizabeth.
    Tut tut - far too informal.

    In Britain, after first addressing The Queen once as Your Majesty, one then addresses her as Ma'am.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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