Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sources - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sources

    Hi Doc, welcome to the club. I retired in 2017 after 40 years in dairy practice. If you are interested in bees from a veterinary perspective, you might want to check out the Honey Bee Veterinary Consortium. HBVC held a two day meeting last fall with seminars geared to veterinarians interested in bee medicine. I think a similar meeting is planned for this fall.

    https://www.hbvc.org/

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    Greg, why are you saying not to feed the bees? Just curious...
    Cloverdale, I am in Mich. I never feed either. The bees need to tune to the natural blooms, and then they can optimize what is out there and brood up accordingly. In the spring if a hive is low, I would add a super (medium) from a dead out, as spring feed, that would be the only time and it happens like 1 of 10 hives. When I have fed in the past, (from expert advice) they brood up and mites go up and the hive crashes in September, summer looks good dead by the first snow fall. I have been lucky and found Apairy locations near river bottoms. As it drys up the blooms move closer to the water until the very edge of the river has blooms. there are Maples, Dogwood, Willows, Basswood etc along the creeks. I find this is somewhat an ideal Apairy Site. Unfortunately I am not familiar to the Dearth conditions as I do not see them. Similar to the Florida guys not being familiar to 5 feet of snow on the ground. For me if I had to feed, I would move the bees to a better site. If moving is not an option and there is no feed locally then you would be in the same situation of having a horse in the desert, So you would haul in Hay. Having bees I need to feed would take some of the fun out of it for me. I may also have a horse running around a good green pasture, but if I needed to go out and give a bale of hay every day I would likely sell the horse. I need to have the ability to go away for a couple weeks and when I come back , my critters and Bugs are still fine.
    GG

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    We've also never had the 'need' to feed our colonies during summer months and really feel for those Beeks forced to feed during periodic dearths. We have friends in southern GA that are running small open feeders all summer long as a way to tell when a dearth hits. If there's a flow on bees leave the feeder alone, if they're hitting it like mad they feed syrup or add honey to hives.

    It seems that northern regional climates provide a steady flow from about mid April (in northern WI) until goldenrods and asters bloom (mid Sept), then its 6-7 months of survival on what has been collected. If less than required/needed to survive, we will feed primarily honey.

    Depending on its size, while not always successful....We 'try' to leave each 'honey production' colony that will be going into winter around 100 lbs of honey. They earned it, no? Our Nuc's obviously have less storage, but also need less and if they do need some, our big colonies don't seem to miss a few frames.

    Gonna be a HOT weekend, might just watch bees and wait till the next cool morning to get into the yard.

    Stay cool/Take care friends!

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    ....... If moving is not an option and there is no feed locally then you would be in the same situation of having a horse in the desert.......GG
    OR similar to growing alfalfa in the desert (by pumping the water from aquifer down below until it is all gone).
    Google up how the Saudis doing it in California and laughing all way to the bank (to the detriment of the locals - who sold the land to the Saudis - scratching there heads - why are the wells going dry????).

    In short - this is unsustainable and (... I will stop right here...).

    You must understand what your local honey bee foraging base is and decide accordingly (to keep the bees OR not to keep the bees).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy View Post
    We've also never had the 'need' to feed our colonies during summer months.....

    Stay cool/Take care friends!
    Right, DB.
    Basically, we up here get compensated for the 6-7 months of solid no-forage, cold-season time by then 5-6 months of non-stop foraging, warm-season time (weather permitting) - there is always something coming in (at least some small sustaining nectar/pollen flow).

    The only valid cases of summer feeding here - very weak nucs that are worth keeping.
    I feed one right now - just dropped in a frame of old honey/pollen for them to scavenge through.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy View Post
    We've also never had the 'need' to feed our colonies during summer months and really feel for those Beeks forced to feed during periodic dearths. We have friends in southern GA that are running small open feeders all summer long as a way to tell when a dearth hits. If there's a flow on bees leave the feeder alone, if they're hitting it like mad they feed syrup or add honey to hives.

    It seems that northern regional climates provide a steady flow from about mid April (in northern WI) until goldenrods and asters bloom (mid Sept), then its 6-7 months of survival on what has been collected. If less than required/needed to survive, we will feed primarily honey.

    Depending on its size, while not always successful....We 'try' to leave each 'honey production' colony that will be going into winter around 100 lbs of honey. They earned it, no? Our Nuc's obviously have less storage, but also need less and if they do need some, our big colonies don't seem to miss a few frames.

    Gonna be a HOT weekend, might just watch bees and wait till the next cool morning to get into the yard.

    Stay cool/Take care friends!
    How many frames of capped honey is 100 lbs?

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    How many frames of capped honey is 100 lbs?
    100# would be about 14-15 deep lang frames. You did not specify the size or style of the frame, but asked a question which can not be answered without that information. If you have Dadant deeps, maybe what, six frames? Shallow supers, 30 frames?
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    How many frames of capped honey is 100 lbs?
    Based on my extraction last week that would be exactly 2 deeps fully packed with honey. Seems like overkill - here in the frozen Canada we overwinter with a fraction of that amount. One year when I tried leaving them 2 doubles full of honey they did not consume even half of that...

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by dekster View Post
    Based on my extraction last week that would be exactly 2 deeps fully packed with honey. Seems like overkill - here in the frozen Canada we overwinter with a fraction of that amount. One year when I tried leaving them 2 doubles full of honey they did not consume even half of that...
    Seems a deep is more than 50 pounds of honey. Dundas is not really the frozen north, it is near Hamilton, like even with Flint Mich. I am about 4 hours drive north of you in Pleasant Thunder Bay River Valley. I guess down south in Dundas 40-60 pounds may be enough to winter. I shoot for 70-90 pounds of stores, in Northern lower Michigan, somewhat dependent on the population, Smaller clusters need a bit less larger a Bit more. GregV uses the Layens style frames so 6 to 8 frames would be close to 100 pounds, again dependant on comb thickness. Also in spring you may need 3 or so more weeks of feed to get to blooms, Dandelion bloom is when i breath the sign of relief. each local is somewhat unique. So dekster you extract in mid july? Is this it then or do you do another later? I do one in late Aug, then let them pack in some goldenrod honey.
    GG

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    100# would be about 14-15 deep lang frames. You did not specify the size or style of the frame, but asked a question which can not be answered without that information. If you have Dadant deeps, maybe what, six frames? Shallow supers, 30 frames?
    Standard Dadant deep frame (435x300 mm) completely full of honey holds ~10 pounds (~4kg).

    Eastern Euro beeks normally winter on 6-8 Dadant deep frames - that is ~50-80 lbs (brood-nest frames for wintering are hardly ever 100% full, more like 80% full).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    .... GregV uses the Layens style frames so 6 to 8 frames would be close to 100 pounds......GG
    Closer to 50-80 pounds (case by case).
    I am essentially identical to the Dadant frames.

    Case by case, I will put up dry sugar (especially late winter - every surviving unit will get dry sugar then - because it is worth it at that point).
    This is a great cheap insurance and has always paid off for me (even when honey is still available, sugar often more desirable/reachable during cold season - so it is not just about honey availability but about honey usability).
    Last edited by GregV; 07-18-2019 at 01:43 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Smaller clusters need a bit less larger a Bit more. So dekster you extract in mid july? Is this it then or do you do another later? I do one in late Aug, then let them pack in some goldenrod honey.
    GG
    Good point- I'm trying to keep smaller clusters now (single brood deeps year round only as per Paul Kelly), so they not only need less stores but generally have better survival rates (from my very limited experience so far).
    I have to extract in July and then again in Aug otherwise I won't be able to put the third double super on top (drawback of running all deeps). I can't leave them the goldenrod honey in the fall since I reduce them to single box, so they get whatever honey they stashed away in the brood box plus all the sugar syrup they can absorb.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    I want to speak up on this issue, not as a beek because i'm not really one yet, but someone following the news.

    If you get out there and look at real news that's away from Money people are really out there saying Indiana, Illinois, Michigan and a lot of Midwest areas had the their corn market and soy market go completely bust up. No joke.

    They are saying the USDA corn and soy planted and sprouted acres are completely fraud, and BS. There's guys with youtube videos up saying when they drive through their home town that maybe 2 out of 10 farms are really getting a crop. And its really crazy. Nobody really can even guess how bad it is...and everyone was put to sleep by the fake USDA planted acres map to think it would be fine, even though its not. And part of the USDA map being fraud this year was they were counting planting in the mud, when gardeners and farmers know if you plant in soaked wet mud you won't get anything good out of it.

    So...I just want to say...I get that people say don't sugar water your bees, but maybe a second look at what's really going on in the Midwest farming problems could be looked at first. I don't think this guy is wrong to sugar water the bees this year just because its absolutely ridiculous what's going on with wheat, corn, and soy this year. The livestock markets are in really bad shape this year, and probably next also because a lot of animals eat sileage (corn product), and soy. Pigs can only eat certain things, same with horses (collicky horse = most common horse problem), and the chicken and egg markets will also be end up because they are stuck with the cheap foods too.)

    But nobody is talking about this. I am actually surprised I don't see this up as a separate thread.

    Anyway, hope you will consider this, but look at alternative news on youtube and stuff, don't take my word for it. They were talking about it all of May and June. And that's when people got put to sleep because of that fraud USDA map. But then people started saying stuff later on like, 'wait a minute we need the USDA map redone for X #s of states because there's no way that's right.)

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by hagane View Post
    . I don't think this guy is wrong to sugar water the bees this year just because its absolutely ridiculous what's going on with wheat, corn, and soy this year.....
    You see, with the bees we care of the weeds (clovers, thistles, burdock, dandelions, knapweed).
    OK - alfalfa.
    Possibly soy, if no other choices.

    We don't care much at all about corn and wheat.
    Because the bees don't care of these.
    More weeds, the better for the bees.
    Less wheat and corn - better for the bees (because more weeds).
    IF they planted less and the land is gone vacant - great.
    Every time I see vacant parcels that gone to clover (not new apartments or more corn) - that is great for me.

    So you need to figure out the basic bee foraging issues (this is not wheat and corn that bees need).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by hagane View Post
    I want to speak up on this issue, not as a beek because i'm not really one yet, but someone following the news.

    If you get out there and look at real news that's away from Money people are really out there saying Indiana, Illinois, Michigan and a lot of Midwest areas had the their corn market and soy market go completely bust up. No joke.

    They are saying the USDA corn and soy planted and sprouted acres are completely fraud, and BS. There's guys with youtube videos up saying when they drive through their home town that maybe 2 out of 10 farms are really getting a crop. And its really crazy. Nobody really can even guess how bad it is...and everyone was put to sleep by the fake USDA planted acres map to think it would be fine, even though its not. And part of the USDA map being fraud this year was they were counting planting in the mud, when gardeners and farmers know if you plant in soaked wet mud you won't get anything good out of it.

    So...I just want to say...I get that people say don't sugar water your bees, but maybe a second look at what's really going on in the Midwest farming problems could be looked at first. I don't think this guy is wrong to sugar water the bees this year just because its absolutely ridiculous what's going on with wheat, corn, and soy this year. The livestock markets are in really bad shape this year, and probably next also because a lot of animals eat sileage (corn product), and soy. Pigs can only eat certain things, same with horses (collicky horse = most common horse problem), and the chicken and egg markets will also be end up because they are stuck with the cheap foods too.)

    But nobody is talking about this. I am actually surprised I don't see this up as a separate thread.

    Anyway, hope you will consider this, but look at alternative news on youtube and stuff, don't take my word for it. They were talking about it all of May and June. And that's when people got put to sleep because of that fraud USDA map. But then people started saying stuff later on like, 'wait a minute we need the USDA map redone for X #s of states because there's no way that's right.)

    Hi Hagane, all beekeeping is local. If your bees don’t have forage, or a supply of honey/pollen in their hives, feed them. Just like a cat or dog or whatever, they need food if none is available.
    Inspect and heft (weight of the hive) the hive to see what they’ve got stored. Do not let people make you feel like you are a bad beekeeper if the honey bees need food and you feed them sugar water; ALL beekeepers that I know do this. If forage becomes available they will generally ignore the sugar water and collect the nectar.
    Dr. Roger Morse (or one of those Entomologists of Cornell U.), when traveling, would always look for local honey to buy, and test it in the lab for AFB spores; most all of the honey he collected and tested had those spores in it. Those AFB spores in honey and in infected comb/wax stays viable for up to 60 years or so. All the more reason to feed them sugar water when needed.
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    ......... most all of the honey he collected and tested had those spores in it. Those AFB spores in honey and in infected comb/wax stays viable for up to 60 years or so. All the more reason to feed them sugar water when needed.
    By this logic now, bees should never, ever eat ANY honey again.
    NOT be allowed to forage either.
    NEVER be allowed to even make honey ever again - there will be AFB spores in it.
    ~ l100% guarantied.

    Look, AFB spores are everywhere and then why even worry about it.

    Just like Titanus spores are right on the dirty keyboard I am typing this - am I going to die of Titanus now?
    What if I eat a bagel right now with my unwashed fingers, while typing?
    Here...... done it.
    I am sure I just ingested some botulism spores.

    Infection is everywhere and this is normal.
    The issue is - under some conditions the infection will wake up and and grow onto the susceptible subjects.
    But under most conditions we need not worry about it.
    Not all subjects are susceptible to the infection either.
    Last edited by GregV; 07-25-2019 at 07:37 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    I’m stating a fact regarding beekeeping and AFB spores, and of course my own experience.
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    I’m stating a fact regarding beekeeping and AFB spores, and of course my own experience.
    Like you stated:
    most all of the honey he collected and tested had those spores in it.
    A safe assumption is - infection is present anywhere at any time (including AFB spores).
    So that is not a sound basis to feed sugar (to avoid the infection from honey - normal bee food).

    We normally feed sugar to save the bees from starvation when so justified.
    In the case above, it is not typically justified to feed sugar in IL in July.
    That is rather abnormal.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Of course, which is what I said. Being he is newer to beekeeping, I find that not too many beekeepers know of this fact regarding AFB spores in honey. Some will buy honey and feed it to their bees which shouldn’t be done as Dr. Morse researched. I would say feed your wet frames back to your bees but I don’t remember if he received a package or a nuc...My AFB came from a nuc frame when I first started. I am definitely NOT advocating feeding sugar ALL THE TIME to a hive, just when needed. Deb
    Western Catskill Mountains
    Proverbs 16:24

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Retired veterinarian bees have no nectar sourcears

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    ...Force them fly and find food, it is out there - you just don't know.....
    Here is an excellent demonstration by T. Seeley on this exact subject (start watching at 11:55; notice how bees routinely fly up to 4km, and will fly beyond if have to)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkJQ4GUSj8I
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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