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Nicot Laying Cage - complete success !!

5K views 17 replies 6 participants last post by  JWPalmer 
#1 ·
This thread is essentially an extension of: https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?353459-Some-misc-Nicot-chat ... but the story I'm about to relate may be of value to others (perhaps ?), and so I thought I'd start a new thread to describe the following events.

For anyone who hasn't read the above thread, it's a tale of woe. I've been trying to use the Nicot Laying Cage for many years - but always without success - with not even one larvae resulting. That is, until this year when I managed to recover 8 larvae (from 110 cells) - oh whoopee ... :(

But those 8 larvae were to cause me to question "why were they left and fed, and not removed along with the rest ?" The only explanation I could think of was that they were larvae from the first eggs laid ... and perhaps there was a clue there ... once the egg reaches a certain age (assuming it hasn't been molested by then) perhaps the bees treat it differently ? Well, it was an idea worth pursuing ...

Added to this was the idea of 'value' which keeps being raised in my mind: by this I mean if a colony is queen-right with lots of bees of all descriptions, maybe they don't really need any more brood - especially if they sense there's something not quite right about the comb in which eggs have been laid. Perhaps that 'iffy' comb has more value to the colony as a store for nectar instead ? So - "remove those eggs - there's something not quite right there, anyway."

Contrast this scenario with that of a queenless colony - in the jargon "a hopelessly queenless colony" - that is, one which has been queenless for an extended period, and no longer has any means of generating a queen from existing brood. What 'value' would such a desperate colony place upon a frame (even an 'iffy' frame) of eggs ? So - let's find out ...


At the moment I have two such queenless colonies: one is a 5-frame Joseph Clemens queenless starter-finisher (albeit recently moved into a 11-frame box, appropriately dummied down); the other is a much larger Laidlaw-sized 11-frame queenless starter-finisher. Both have been queenless for several weeks and have had open brood added at regular intervals during that time, with the resulting rogue queen-cells duly cut out.

Two different (genuine) Nicot laying cages were used for this trial - one mounted in a slatted batten configuration, the other mounted within an existing and well seasoned black comb.

Queens from two different strains of bee: one Carniolan, the other Buckfast - both F1's - were inserted into the laying cages, which were then left in their respective hives for approx. 36 hrs, until eggs were seen upon inspection. As soon as eggs were present in 8 out of 8 randomly removed cell-cups, the queens were released, the bees brushed off the frames, and protection plates inserted to prevent further access to the eggs. Then the frames were returned to hives for a further 24 hrs.

After this time, the frames were transferred to the queenless starter-finishers (or "hopelessly queenless colonies"), with their protection plates now removed. 24 hrs later, the two Nicot Laying Cages were checked for larvae - with outstanding results.

Every single cell examined contained either a larvae or an egg. Not one single evidence of egg removal was found.


To recap then ...

As soon as the breeder queen has laid her eggs, access to those eggs is then denied to her colony.

After 24 hrs, those eggs are given to a "hopelessly queenless colony", which will presumably have forgotten the smell of their old queen, and so will not reject the eggs as being foreign to them. For that reason, I would suggest that it's unlikely this technique would work with a Cloake Board setup, as the duration of queenlessness is then too short.

Needless to say, further trials will need to be conducted to ensure that this technique is sound, but identical results were obtained here by two trials having completely different components.

If anyone else should try this method - please advise of the outcome.
LJ
 
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#2 ·
interesting idea moving them to a queenless colony before putting them on the cell bars. Only problem i see is that some queens don't start laying in the confined space right away. I suppose checking on them daily is needed.
I would consider this a success if it was greater then 50 percent of all the nicot were accepted. Right now i'm doing about 30 grafts by hand and averaging 10 taken to capped. So 33 percent or so. To warrant the continued expense of the Nicot cups i feel there should be more return.
Perhaps i'll try your method before i get rid of my queenless starter colony this year.
 
#3 ·
Hi Terence - I think this workaround is certainly worth trying if egg removal is the presenting problem, and if you should decide to try it I'd be most interested to hear how you got on.

I agree that the Nicot system is far from ideal: unlike grafting you need to locate and confine the queen, and then check daily to confirm that eggs have been laid. I found that painting molten wax over the face of the cage helps to overcome any reluctance to lay, but I've found that young queens in particular can flatly refuse to lay eggs - even after several days of confinement.

But - my biggest headache has always been egg removal - and of course this only becomes evident after the 3 day check for larvae. Add to this a couple of days to get eggs laid in the first place, and we're talking the best part of a week wasted each time this happens. Frustratingly, I still don't know WHY eggs are being removed or eaten - this is only a somewhat complex workaround to overcome that problem.

But - even though it appears that I can now successfully harvest non-grafted larvae using the Nicot system, my preference remains the raising of natural queen-cells on white comb - it's far from being a commercially viable method, but ideal for the relatively small numbers of queens required here each year.
'best
LJ
 
#5 ·
Bearing in mind that some of these larvae are going to become queens and not just bog-standard workers - I'd be very worried that their development would be seriously affected by even a brief period of starvation.

In the original US Patent 4392262 (1983) - which of course predates the Nicot and Jenter systems - the author writes:
"About a day before the eggs burst and the larvae slip out of the broken eggs, protective plate 20 is removed."

'Broken' eggs - guess he didn't know that they dissolve ... :)

Strange how this protection plate has never featured (afaik) in either the Nicot or Jenter systems ...
LJ
 
#8 ·
In my short time making my queens i've only been able to make smaller queens. So not the big and plump ones. However they lay like freight trains so far. Much better then the big ones i've bought in the past. I personally feel we place too much emphasis on size just like we do with cars, dogs, meals.
The bees themselves make larger queens but i have not taking calipers to them to figure out the size difference.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I'm sure genetics IS important - but I seem to remember someone with a good reputation within the beekeeping world saying something like: "a well-fed queen of poor genetics is better than a poorly-fed queen of superior genetics" - or words to that effect.

With that in mind, can I suggest a read of Jay Smith's 'Better Queens', a copy of which can be found on Michael Bush's site: http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm - or one of the many .pdf versions of MB's contribution which have now sprung up on other sites, such as: http://apimo.dk/programs/special/Better_Queens_by_Jay_Smith.pdf

The core message to be found within that book, is that it's both the quality and the quantity of feed given to the larvae which are key to the development of superior queens, and that in order to achieve this it is not only essential to have a sufficient number of nurse bees available for feeding - but they MUST be in 'active feeding mode' at the time that the larvae are given to them.

Because - it can take a day or two for the nurse bees to go from a 'dormant' state to an active feeding state. So - even if you were to give a bar of grafts to a hive overflowing with nurse bees, if they're not actively feeding beforehand then those larvae will be fed a relatively impoverished diet until those bees 'get up to speed', and by the time they do - the larvae will then be that much older and so will have largely 'missed the bus'.

One suggestion Jay Smith makes is to remove the brood combs from a breeder colony, and leave behind one newly-drawn white comb flanked on either side by one comb of pollen and one of stores - and that's all. [Even though I've already got more than enough new queens for this season, I've just started such a trial as a test.] Then, the queen will jump on that comb and lay it up within 24hrs [she did exactly that], and the whole colony's worth of nurse bees will then proceed to flood that single comb of eggs with an abundance of bee milk. [again, that's exactly what has happened]

Later-on today I'll be transferring that comb (of now freshly hatched larvae) to a colony which has recently been made queenless, and who's nurses are still actively feeding 'rogue' (from my point-of-view) queen-cells. I'm expecting that colony to then draw out as many good-quality queen cells on that white comb as they can afford to feed.

'best
LJ
 
#13 · (Edited)
I'm sure genetics IS important - but I seem to remember someone with a good reputation within the beekeeping world saying something like: "a well-fed queen of poor genetics is better than a poorly-fed queen of superior genetics" - or words to that effect.........

LJ
Unsure about this one LJ.
It is a commercial talk that just gets replicated over and over.
:)

I would take a crappy Q (be it an oldie or a dink or whatever) originating from a good line (a survivor in my world) and try to produce more queens/drones from her - THUS still persisting the genetic line for the benefit of the local population (if you are interested in maintaining the local population).
I don't particularly care to fetch a top-producing commercial queen - no matter how big and strong and beautiful - while the show is on (they tend to die after the show is finished and sale is made).

Commercial producer interests and local enthusiast beek interests can be very different.
 
#10 ·
Final update on this topic - the first virgin (of about 40) emerged within the incubator this evening at around 8 p.m. The 'due day' for emergence was calculated as tomorrow, so just a few hours early is a level of timing precision I've never experienced before when working with natural queen cells. Very impressive.

She's a big girl and a well-marked Carnie (black with narrow ivory stripes) - I hope the rest turn out just as well. I can probably find homes for around 20, and will try to give the rest away.

I'm now looking forward to next year, when I'll be trying the same modified Nicot Laying Cage method again - only next time much nearer to the beginning of the season, rather than towards the end. :)
LJ
 
#12 ·
Thanks. For me it's been a long haul - so many years of hearing of other's successes with the Nicot 'laying cage' system - during which time I've had nothing but 100% failure. The only consolation during this time has been hearing similar stories from those who have also experienced complete and utter failure.

The most frustrating thing has been that the system should work flawlessly - the theoretical logic behind it makes total sense - and for so many people it does indeed 'produce the goods'. "So why not for me ?"

I still don't know why eggs are removed from the cage - I only know that this happens time and time again, no matter what variation in position or other condition is being tried. The use of an egg protection plate for some 24hrs, followed by cage transfer into a 'hopelessly queenless colony' who's bees have been kept in 'feeding mode' has been the magic solution for me - I only hope this alternative procedure solves the problem for others.

BTW - a few more lovely virgins emerged overnight. Looks like today is going to be a busy one. It's not over yet, of course - still need to get 'em mated - but I haven't seen too many swallows yet and not one single dragonfly at the time of writing.
LJ

resoluta catenis incedit virgo, pretiumque et causa laboris ("freed of her chains the virgin advances, the prize and the cause of our labour.") ... from the Tale of Perseus and Andromeda. :)
 
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