one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?
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  1. #1
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    Question one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    Maybe an academic question, but ..... would there be a downside to using Apivar strips and an OA dribble for mites in a hive at around the same time? I mean, if I have the strips in a hive, why not do a dribble just to cover as many bases as possible? I know mites'll be present, no matter what, and I hear more reports of them becoming resistant to Apivar, so -- barring a sugar shake or alcohol wash (the latter to which I'm opposed to on principle) -- why not do a combo?

    Or ... is there a risk (or waste of resources) I'm not seeing?

    Thx for ideas/anecdotes/etc .....

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlanden View Post
    and I hear more reports of them becoming resistant to Apivar,
    .....
    Can you provide some link(s) about the Apivar resistance please? - Thanks

  4. #3
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    There are confirmed reports of amitraz resistance but I do not have the source material. Rotating treatments is always a good idea, but combing two different treatments at the same time may not be such a good plan. Better would be to treat with the Apivar starting about now for your location, and doing a followup treatment with the OAD around the end of September or into October when the hive becomes broodless.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  5. #4
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    Seattle WA
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    Devil's advocate here. If you are concerned with Apivar not working, why use it at all? Wouldn't you be better off saving the money and using something you know works?

    I too have heard on this forum of people who found it not working. However, I would not be surprised it was user error and not resistance. I have yet to hear of a large scale case where it did not work. There have been reports of people with a few hive who had issues but I have also heard of lots of people that claim OAV did not work for them as well. personally, I have not seen either.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    Apivar is no longer effective in many areas in controlling varroa. OA is still effective if three treatments five or so days apart are properly administered. The Apivar may knock down mite count, but unless you have a mite population that still is killed by Amitraz, I see no real benefit. Mites can only be killed so dead. Just properly use the effective treatment. Apiguard still kills mites in my hives. I use it as the alternate treatment on strong hives with good results. Using it on weak hives seems to destroy them.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    How large scale of a case do you need? The incident I am referring to was a small scale commercial beekeeper who had been using Apivar for years with excellent results. He brought in some package bees off almonds two years ago and placed them in one of his out yards with other existing colonies. He treated all his hives at the same time but lost almost this entire out yard to varroa. His other two yards were spared. According to him, the state apiarist confirmed Amitraz resistant varroa. He bought a Provap and started rotating treatments. He was lucky that this was a small yard and he only lost 28 of 30 hives. I do agree that many reported cases of treatment failure are due to beekeeper error. I know for a fact that OAV works, yet some still claim poor results. Go figure.

    Anyone want to buy a 50 pack of Apivar? Just kidding. There may be a time when I need it.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    Much obliged, troops, for all the input. The takeaway from these, I guess, is to just do what I usually do -- July Tx with 1 agent, Oct. Tx with another, and so-on in Feb-March .....

    Mitch

  9. #8
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    2 deep hive bodies requires 4 apivar strips. A pack of apivar comes with 10 strips. Each pack of apivar is $35+.

    Better be a wealthy beekeeper to be able to afford to treat all hives with apivar.

    IDK how they get away with charging $3.5 per strip.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    IDK how they get away with charging $3.5 per strip.
    As long as nucs are going for $150 - $200 each, $3.50/strip is a relative bargain. Though admittedly expensive.

    I think there is a nuance to this idea of Amitraz/Apivar resistance that is often overlooked. While I understand that Amitraz is the active ingredient of Apivar, I think we should distinguish between events of apparent resistance to Amitraz vs. events of apparent resistance to Apivar.

    Commercial beekeepers traditionally used Taktic, which is a cattle tick amitraz treatment, for many years. This was an unapproved/off-label/illegal use of Amitraz. Commercial beekeepers began reporting some "resistance" to Taktic/Amitraz. There were some reports that a generic Taktic was being sold to commerical beeks in which the active ingredient (Amitraz) was being dramatically cut. This would effectively leave the impression with commercial beeks that their bees were becoming resistant to Amitraz. Maybe. Maybe not. It could be that they were unwittingly placing an insufficient amount of amitraz in their hives.

    As to Apivar, I know of no studies that show indications of resistance. Below is a clip from Veto Pharma's site on Apivar vs. Taktic:

    17. Is Taktic equivalent to Apivar?
    It has been recognised for many years that amitraz is very effective for the control of varroa mite infestation in the colonies. Nevertheless, efficacy and security for both humans and bees are only provided by a restricted use of the active ingredient.
    The use of Taktic in the apiary is very far from Apivar guarantees. Taktic is a short acting product and as a consequence only kills phoretic varroa present at the moment of the application with no control of the residues and the quantity of actives inhaled by the beekeepers. New generations of bees will be contaminated as soon as they emerge from their cells. As a consequence, this illegal treatment presents very low effect when there is brood in the colony and is responsible for high risks to honey bees and human health.

    On the other hand, Apivar is authorised as a drug which delivers a controlled and continuous amount of active during many varroa lifecycles allowing elimination of most of the varroa in the beehive. Moreover, the residues are known and always lower than the regulatory threshold (Maximum Residue Limit) defined for this active.
    Apivar is not only effective but safe and helps beekeepers to increase the quality image of the honey.


    ALSO:

    13. Is there a monitoring of the efficacy of Apivar? Is the efficacy still very good despite the frequent use of Apivar?
    In the EU where it has been developed, Apivar is classed as a veterinary medicine and is subject to the medicine regulations. As a consequence, Apivar benefits from a full market authorization dossier with efficacy data that shows its efficacy to reduce Varroa mite infestation.

    Since it has been authorized, many trials have been carried out on a regular basis to monitor its efficacy. For example, in France, where Apivar is authorized and used on a large scale since 1995, Veto-pharma takes part every year in an efficacy study. The efficacy of Apivar remains very high despite a very intensive and repeated use for many years in a lot of countries worldwide.
    Trials have also been conducted in the US and Turkey in 2009, and in Bulgaria in 2011. All the results are consistent and show a constant efficacy.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    2 deep hive bodies requires 4 apivar strips. A pack of apivar comes with 10 strips. Each pack of apivar is $35+.

    Better be a wealthy beekeeper to be able to afford to treat all hives with apivar.

    IDK how they get away with charging $3.5 per strip.
    last year I treated early in the spring with apivar when the brood nest was small only 1 hive needed 3 strips the rest had 1 that gave me great knock down of the mites for the year never found a mite in a sugar shake or in drone brood. treated with apigard in the fall OAV when they were broodless skipped the apiivar this spring and had to put some MAQS in already. Lesson learned. The MAQS killed off my best queen good thing I got some grafts from her.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: one-two punch using Apivar and OA dribble?

    Apivar is also sold in a 50 pack which I last bought on sale for $130. That brings the price down to just $2.60 per strip. Still real expensive compared to OAV, but has a low cost of entry. No equipment to purchase.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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