How do you ventilate Layens hives?

[jfh00jfh]

Thanks for the suggestion.

Those are good discussions but none I saw specifically addressed: if ventilation is key for Langstroth hives and quilt/ moisture boxes are requisite for may geo locations, how do closed-top Layens-type hives address this?

Specifically: if moisture removal is key for one type of hive, is it key for all.

Especially the idea that Layens' hives are designed to be visited 1-2 times/year and MOL take care of themselves.

I'm reading Layens book now and I hope to learn more there.

Thanks again.

[GregV]

Thanks for the suggestion.

Those are good discussions but none I saw specifically addressed: if ventilation is key for Langstroth hives and quilt/ moisture boxes are requisite for may geo locations, how do closed-top Layens-type hives address this?

Specifically: if moisture removal is key for one type of hive, is it key for all.

Especially the idea that Layens' hives are designed to be visited 1-2 times/year and MOL take care of themselves.

I'm reading Layens book now and I hope to learn more there.

Thanks again.

Well, those commercial Lang hives have no under-frame space to speak off (often retro-mitigated by the under-frame racks, empty super box at the bottom, etc - for better moisture dissipation in winter). Also, a typical Lang keeper does not create an empty side air-pocket for better moisture dissipation.

Empty side-pockets/under-frame space are signature ways to winter in the Layen's (and the similar deep and long hives).

The moisture removal (your concern) is achieved by
1)direct ventilation - up and out
and/or
2)dissipation to the drier volume of the hive due to moisture gradients - down and to the side

In reality, this is always some combination of #1 and #2 (and something else - say, wind exposure).

Long hives (unlike typical Langs) have better configuration for #2 (#1 still being a part of the picture) and so #2 is to be taken advantage off since you have it built-in.

Like I said, in my current setups I feel I allow for too MUCH ventilation in the cold season (subsequently, bees have to work harder to warm themselves - too much heat is lost from the cluster - energy is sucked away due to too much ventilation).
Will modify my follower boards to be tighter for this winter - there is too much drafting around them as it is now.

Regarding 1-2 visits per the year - I too believed into the story originally.
Now, I have to clarify - G. Layens was resident of Southern France or thereabouts - minimal care is needed for wintering - no care for the current mite situation either.
L. Sharashkin is in Southen MO (those pictures of his snowed hives - you just have smile at them - he really has no winter - I know, because I lived in the KC area for about 10 years).
Basically, if you are in the USDA 4 or bordering it - this will be more than 1-2 visits per year just so you can winterize the hives (end then undo it).
Also, L. Sharashkin must make it clear - 1-2 visits per a year are only possible if you do not have to deal with the mites at all (diff subject here) - not possible in the majority of locations.

[Gray Goose]

Hey I want to toss another idea on the pile.
IMO some moisture is "required" for the over winter.
Bees if they want to make brood need to add water to the honey to make the food for brood. (normally they use nectar) Also there are some water requirements for the hive in the winter. So The bees will go to the water droplets and suck the water up to be used in the hive during winter, As you know flight out for water in Feb is not an option, where some of us keep bees. Again winter water need, this is my opinion , from Empirical observations. Too much ventilation can retard early spring brood up, due to no droplets of water in the hive when the bees need it. the the vapor to water droplet to bee water is something that is used for the bees water source in the winter. One key is to insulate the top of the hive, much better than the sides so if/when condensation develops, the drops do not fall on the winter cluster. As you move farther north this has more impact, most bee keepers do not deal with long cold winters. My best production hive right now was one that had Ice blocking the entrance in feb, causing me a bit of panic. Condensation ran down the sides and froze at the entrance. I was chipping ice and heating my hive tool with a torch and melting a hole thru it. From that I have a new style bottom for my langs that is going to have a first winter trial this fall. it has a place for the water to go and the "space" under the comb for the air to mix.

So to answer the question, (from the bottom)

See attached pics, I also built a long deep from the plans in the book, I added a 4 inch drawer under the hive, to allow for extra air under the hive and debris to fall thru, and water to pool out of the hive in winter. The 2x2 in the pic, was placed for the "porch" effect and to set the 1.5 inch foam board on in winter. Most hives have 3/4 inch to separate the outside from the inside, the wall thickness basically. Most of our houses have a "entrance/porch" this is to better keep the cold out of the house, so this set up gives me 2 3/4 inch VRS 3/4 which is 8-10 bee widths, for homo sapiens it would be 8-10 foot porch, (8-10 people widths).

So I would not try to "over vent" the Layens hive as long as you have space for water that is outside the comb area.
GG

[jfh00jfh]

Thanks for the comments.

I see more about bees suffering from too much moisture in Winter and I hadn't considered the opposite.

We slide a board under the screened bottoms of our Langstroths and think the 3/8x~15" entrance provides enough air flow.

[Gray Goose]

Thanks for the comments.

I see more about bees suffering from too much moisture in Winter and I hadn't considered the opposite.

too much ventilation can be more stores consumed and a starve out , or late brood start and smallish cluster in the spring. Hard to pinpoint what causes these symptoms as many things can. In your trial ventilation try to make something you can throttle. Open a bit or close a bit. I think too much air flow would have issues. open below will allow exchange via Gases flowing to a less saturated area. On my hive I build i considered a "pipe" with a "T" top. maybe 12-30 inch and adjust the height to create less or more chimney effect. 3/4 to 1 inch was my starting point. Give a try and let us know in the spring how they fared.
GG

[jfh00jfh]

I have 2 2" screened round holes in the bottom and I have covers that can be attached over them to close/restrict.

I also made a full-width quilt box for the top with sides that can be slid up to restrict the vents.

And I have 2 frame-width screens that can replace frames.

Layens in his book shows Winter venting with one frame removed from the end and the opening covered with burlap.

[Gray Goose]

I have 2 2" screened round holes in the bottom and I have covers that can be attached over them to close/restrict.

I also made a full-width quilt box for the top with sides that can be slid up to restrict the vents.

And I have 2 frame-width screens that can replace frames.

Layens in his book shows Winter venting with one frame removed from the end and the opening covered with burlap.

that seems like lots of ventilation. depending on how windy the hive location is. I started with None, and am considering a 1.5 inch hole in a drawer, screened, and a 3/4 inch PVC pipe appx 20 inches, sticking out the top, VIA an end hole. I made mine for the Lang frames double deep so I have an air space between the top of the frames and the bottom of the boards going over the top, Drill out from there on the opposite end the bees are on.

[jfh00jfh]

I agree, it could be too much ventilation. I imagine we'll choke most of it off for Winter.

But bee heat creates moisture where it hits the outside cold air. Some folks with Langstroths like to tilt the hive forward so condensation runs down the front and drips out.

Our hive is unoccupied for now - unless we get a Fall swarm, we'll put a slit or swarm in it next Spring

[Gray Goose]

I agree, it could be too much ventilation. I imagine we'll choke most of it off for Winter.

But bee heat creates moisture where it hits the outside cold air. Some folks with Langstroths like to tilt the hive forward so condensation runs down the front and drips out.

that is what I did was to tilt, the water ran out and froze a inch or 2 out the door , built up until the door way was all blocked with ICE. It was a 3/4 inch thick on the bottom board. Also once melted made a mess with the crumbs of wax and dead bees in the spring. Hence a screened enclosed drawer bottom. I have 2 with bees in so i'll have insight in the spring if it works. Solid does not in very cold conditions.
GG

[jfh00jfh]

We've had good luck with wood-hip filled quilt boxes so far. The moisture hits the cold air on top of the chips after rising out of the hive.

[GregV]

too much ventilation can be more stores consumed and a starve out , or late brood start and smallish cluster in the spring. Hard to pinpoint what causes these symptoms as many things can. In your trial ventilation try to make something you can throttle. Open a bit or close a bit. I think too much air flow would have issues. open below will allow exchange via Gases flowing to a less saturated area. On my hive I build i considered a "pipe" with a "T" top. maybe 12-30 inch and adjust the height to create less or more chimney effect. 3/4 to 1 inch was my starting point. Give a try and let us know in the spring how they fared.
GG

This was my problem last season and cost some of the losses (pretty sure).
The technical issue - I have the follower boards that allow free air flow on three sides (bottom and the sides).
This is too much if the winter turns hard (as it did the last season).
For the coming cold season am planning to staple some material to the follower boards (creating gaskets) so to restrict air on the sides.

As depicted here:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...47#post1713947

I now changed my mind about complete and free access on three sides of the follower board (due to excessive ventilation in winter as I now believe).
Instead, will provide 1-2 small holes directly through the board (warm way entrances through the board).
Like so:
FollowerBoardModified.jpg

[Gray Goose]

This was my problem last season and cost some of the losses (pretty sure).
The technical issue - I have the follower boards that allow free air flow on three sides (bottom and the sides).
This is too much if the winter turns hard (as it did the last season).
For the coming cold season am planning to staple some material to the follower boards (creating gaskets) so to restrict air on the sides.

As depicted here:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...47#post1713947

I now changed my mind about complete and free access on three sides of the follower board (due to excessive ventilation in winter as I now believe).
Instead, will provide 1-2 small holes directly through the board (warm way entrances through the board).
Like so:
FollowerBoardModified.jpg

Greg, see the last PIC on this page http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15.htm
some sort of a gasket would do the trick, or maybe 2,, 1 firm and short and one bigger and soft, like inner tube and then burlap on top of it

[GregV]

Greg, see the last PIC on this page http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15.htm
some sort of a gasket would do the trick, or maybe 2,, 1 firm and short and one bigger and soft, like inner tube and then burlap on top of it

Yes, something of the sort.

[lobottomee]

We have quilt boxes with vents on our Langstroth hives. Air comes through the bottom screen and up through the spaces between the frames. In Winter we close the bottom screen but still get venting through the quilt box – venting is arguably more important in Winter to evaporate moisture.

I just built a Layens hive to the spec below. It has vents in the bottom and cover; and the cover is set up so that there’s a ~2” space between the frames and the inside of the cover.

But Layens frames touch side-to-side so the air can’t go up between frames as it does on a Langstroth.

You could of course space the frames eg. 1/8”/side. But Layens frames are made to maintain the bee-space with top-bars touching so you’d have too much space inside if you spaced them apart.

Anyone have experience with Layens hives and/or ideas about venting Horizontal hives? Or just venting in general?

https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-bu...ngstroth.shtml

…’Layens horizontal hives have many advantages over Long Langstroth hives. Layens frames are better size for colony development and wintering. Top bars of Layens frames touch, minimizing heat loss during winter and bee disturbance during inspections. The space above Layens frames is well-ventilated, removing moisture and preventing overheating in the summer. In winter, this space can be filled with insulation.

Jumping into this thread late. Touching top bars should not matter. Every hive has water vapor inside it, both winter and summer. The danger to the bees is from when that vapor condenses to a liquid, and where the condensation occurs. Assume you have a typical hive with no insulation. So long as the temperature of the air inside the hive stays above the dew point, water will stay in a vapor phase. But as temperature drops and approaches the dew point, vapor starts to condense. Since the coldest air is near the walls, ceiling, and floor of the hive, that's where condensation will occur, similar to water condensing on the inside of a bathroom window after a shower during the winter. If water condenses on the ceiling of a hive, it can subsequently drip down on the cluster, which is very damaging.

The trick is to control where the water will condense. If you insulate the top of the hive, the ceiling will stay warmer than the sides and bottom. In that case, water vapor will condense on the sides or bottom of the hive and so cannot drip down on the cluster.

In the Layens with touching top bars, if you insulate the top bars heavier than the walls, the air near the sides and bottom of the hive will be cooler than the air near the top of the frames, and thus water vapor will condense in those areas. If the temperature in the overall hive stays above the dew point, condensation will occur near the entrance opening, because that's where the coldest air is. I have seen some posts here that describe ice near the opening, which makes perfect sense under certain circumstances.

Keep in mind when thinking about ventilation that there are two purposes; one for allowing air into the hive for bees to breathe, the other for removing vapor heavy air from the hive to control condensation. If you manage condensation well you will need very little in the way of ventilation for breathing purposes.

Bees naturally will reduce the size of their entrance hole in a tree cavity going into winter. I have overwintered hives successfully with just an entrance hole the size of my finger. But in both cases condensation has to be controlled.

In a tree cavity, the ceiling has the rest of the tree trunk above it to serve as insulation. The sides of the cavity are relatively thin compared to the top so any condensation will occur on the sides or near the entrance.

It's also interesting that bees want to completely seal the inside of their hive, making it so neither air nor water vapor can enter at any other place other than the entrance. By doing so they can control the inner micro climate with regards to temperature and humidity.

So if you insulate the top of the closed bars in your Layens hive, I don't think you need to worry about anything else.

Just my thoughts.

[jfh00jfh]

Thanks, good summary of condensation

[fatshark]

After trials, I found that having the entrance located at one end of the hive, with the stores combs located towards the back of the hive, works better than having a central entrance with stores at both ends. I'm further considering replacing the space-occupying blocks with a slatted-rack arrangement, but the existing format works reasonably well-enough 'as is'.
LJ

Interesting hive and, ahem, 'interesting' clickbait on the imgbox-hosted images.

Does that take a dozen 14 x 12's (or similar)? Are they corks blocking the entrance at the 'honey' end? Presumably these are a remnant of the earlier design and you don't open these during a strong nectar flow?

[little_john]

A slight correction re: 'touching' top-bars - that's not how Layens Hives were designed (at least not according to the 12th Edition of De Layens' book). As the frames fit into registration slots at the bottom of the hive, they cannot be slid along the rebate (rabbet in the US) as can be done with other hives - they must either be lifted clear, or tilted back. In order to do this, and avoid the need to 'crack' the propolis seal between touching bars, De Layens fitted V-shaped closures between the frames thus (any errors in translation are mine):

The following graphics are NOT thumbnails - so to avoid seeing adverts, DON'T CLICK ON THEM !

Fig. 25 (Hive frames) shows a side view of the frames C, C, C, partition boards p, P, and the V's.
Stand on the side of the hive, in front of the partition board P [on the right], for example. After detaching the first V, pull that partition board at its middle; thanks to the hinges it will fold in two, and will easily detach itself from the hive. Replace it, one step closer to you, and after replacing it, check to see that it's between the two black spots M, N, which serve to locate its vertical [sic - horizontal (*)] position. We see in fig. 25 then, the partition board in it's new position.
Then detach V no. 2, then frame no. 1; after checking it, you place that frame in the notch where the partition board was. Put a V between that frame and the partition board. Continue the same process with all of the frames.

Here is another method that is preferably used to add or remove one or more frames from a colony. One inclines towards oneself the partition board without removing it,



fig. 26 (Frames as seen from the side);

the same thing is done for each frame, adding the V's as in the first method; and we continue until we have reached the frame we want to remove. After removing it, advance the other frames and partition board a notch. To add a frame to a hive, we operate as above, with the only difference being that, at the same time as the frames are inclined, they are moved one step until you reach the position where you want add a new one. We must be careful when removing frames, not to rub them against each other, which irritates the bees.

Georges de Layens, Elevage Des Abeilles, 12th Ed.

Touching top bars would have been a far simpler solution, but it would appear that De Layens saw advantages in using the above V-closures.

LJ

(*) The black dots indicate the horizontal position, in order to maintain a vertical orientation.

[GregV]

A slight correction re: 'touching' top-bars - that's not how Layens Hives were designed ......

Maybe Leo Sharashkin (the current US-based Layen's hive promoter) got a whiff of this video; I never asked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9rq...HEZyfaZFlyCM2R

Seems as if a current touching-bar hive implementation in the Spain-proper seem to be working fine for them (to be sure, Spain is compatible to the very deep South of the US).

[little_john]

Does that take a dozen 14 x 12's (or similar)? Are they corks blocking the entrance at the 'honey' end? Presumably these are a remnant of the earlier design and you don't open these during a strong nectar flow?

Sorry for the delay in replying - that hive now houses up to twenty 14x12 frames (or a mix of 14x12's and Deeps). The provision of entrances at both ends came about largely by accident: during it's lifetime that hive has been operating as a test-bed, and has had entrance holes in just about every conceivable position. One of the last major modifications to the hive was to restore it's depth to 12"+, having trialled the hive with standard Deep National frames for a couple of seasons.

Having then extended the depth by adding around 3" at the bottom, I decided to leave the existing 'Deep National' entrances 'as was' (that is, at both ends) in order that - should the colony start-off the season with a brood nest positioned at the back of the hive (as a result of stores having previously being held there) - I'd simply then reverse the entrance position rather than shuffle frames around, so that in each ensuing year the entrance position would thus alternate. This has indeed been the case in some years but not in others, when I've found that the brood nest location has been located somewhere near the middle of the hive - for reasons which have never been entirely obvious.

De Layens also created entrances at both ends, but with a slightly different rationale:

In order to increase or decrease the size of the hive at will, we use boards that can be put in the place of a frame. These boards are called partition boards.
For example, a number of frames may be placed in the middle of the hive between two partition boards, fig. 11 (plan view of the beehive), in this case the hive entrance is in the middle.
You can also use only one board; and the frames will then be placed at each end of the hive, either to the right or to the left; it will then be necessary to have two entrances for bees, one at each end of the hive, depending on whether the frames are placed at one end. I adopted the latter system as simpler.

'best
LJ

[RPA2019]

Yes Greg, Leo did get a whiff of this video. I went to one of his seminars earlier this year and he showed us this exact video.