How do you ventilate Layens hives? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Thanks for the suggestion.

    Those are good discussions but none I saw specifically addressed: if ventilation is key for Langstroth hives and quilt/ moisture boxes are requisite for may geo locations, how do closed-top Layens-type hives address this?

    Specifically: if moisture removal is key for one type of hive, is it key for all.

    Especially the idea that Layens' hives are designed to be visited 1-2 times/year and MOL take care of themselves.

    I'm reading Layens book now and I hope to learn more there.

    Thanks again.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh00jfh View Post
    Thanks for the suggestion.

    Those are good discussions but none I saw specifically addressed: if ventilation is key for Langstroth hives and quilt/ moisture boxes are requisite for may geo locations, how do closed-top Layens-type hives address this?

    Specifically: if moisture removal is key for one type of hive, is it key for all.

    Especially the idea that Layens' hives are designed to be visited 1-2 times/year and MOL take care of themselves.

    I'm reading Layens book now and I hope to learn more there.

    Thanks again.
    Well, those commercial Lang hives have no under-frame space to speak off (often retro-mitigated by the under-frame racks, empty super box at the bottom, etc - for better moisture dissipation in winter). Also, a typical Lang keeper does not create an empty side air-pocket for better moisture dissipation.

    Empty side-pockets/under-frame space are signature ways to winter in the Layen's (and the similar deep and long hives).

    The moisture removal (your concern) is achieved by
    1)direct ventilation - up and out
    and/or
    2)dissipation to the drier volume of the hive due to moisture gradients - down and to the side

    In reality, this is always some combination of #1 and #2 (and something else - say, wind exposure).

    Long hives (unlike typical Langs) have better configuration for #2 (#1 still being a part of the picture) and so #2 is to be taken advantage off since you have it built-in.

    Like I said, in my current setups I feel I allow for too MUCH ventilation in the cold season (subsequently, bees have to work harder to warm themselves - too much heat is lost from the cluster - energy is sucked away due to too much ventilation).
    Will modify my follower boards to be tighter for this winter - there is too much drafting around them as it is now.

    Regarding 1-2 visits per the year - I too believed into the story originally.
    Now, I have to clarify - G. Layens was resident of Southern France or thereabouts - minimal care is needed for wintering - no care for the current mite situation either.
    L. Sharashkin is in Southen MO (those pictures of his snowed hives - you just have smile at them - he really has no winter - I know, because I lived in the KC area for about 10 years).
    Basically, if you are in the USDA 4 or bordering it - this will be more than 1-2 visits per year just so you can winterize the hives (end then undo it).
    Also, L. Sharashkin must make it clear - 1-2 visits per a year are only possible if you do not have to deal with the mites at all (diff subject here) - not possible in the majority of locations.
    Last edited by GregV; 07-08-2019 at 11:01 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Hey I want to toss another idea on the pile.
    IMO some moisture is "required" for the over winter.
    Bees if they want to make brood need to add water to the honey to make the food for brood. (normally they use nectar) Also there are some water requirements for the hive in the winter. So The bees will go to the water droplets and suck the water up to be used in the hive during winter, As you know flight out for water in Feb is not an option, where some of us keep bees. Again winter water need, this is my opinion , from Empirical observations. Too much ventilation can retard early spring brood up, due to no droplets of water in the hive when the bees need it. the the vapor to water droplet to bee water is something that is used for the bees water source in the winter. One key is to insulate the top of the hive, much better than the sides so if/when condensation develops, the drops do not fall on the winter cluster. As you move farther north this has more impact, most bee keepers do not deal with long cold winters. My best production hive right now was one that had Ice blocking the entrance in feb, causing me a bit of panic. Condensation ran down the sides and froze at the entrance. I was chipping ice and heating my hive tool with a torch and melting a hole thru it. From that I have a new style bottom for my langs that is going to have a first winter trial this fall. it has a place for the water to go and the "space" under the comb for the air to mix.

    So to answer the question, (from the bottom)

    See attached pics, I also built a long deep from the plans in the book, I added a 4 inch drawer under the hive, to allow for extra air under the hive and debris to fall thru, and water to pool out of the hive in winter. The 2x2 in the pic, was placed for the "porch" effect and to set the 1.5 inch foam board on in winter. Most hives have 3/4 inch to separate the outside from the inside, the wall thickness basically. Most of our houses have a "entrance/porch" this is to better keep the cold out of the house, so this set up gives me 2 3/4 inch VRS 3/4 which is 8-10 bee widths, for homo sapiens it would be 8-10 foot porch, (8-10 people widths).

    So I would not try to "over vent" the Layens hive as long as you have space for water that is outside the comb area.
    GG
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #24
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Thanks for the comments.

    I see more about bees suffering from too much moisture in Winter and I hadn't considered the opposite.

    We slide a board under the screened bottoms of our Langstroths and think the 3/8x~15" entrance provides enough air flow.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh00jfh View Post
    Thanks for the comments.

    I see more about bees suffering from too much moisture in Winter and I hadn't considered the opposite.
    too much ventilation can be more stores consumed and a starve out , or late brood start and smallish cluster in the spring. Hard to pinpoint what causes these symptoms as many things can. In your trial ventilation try to make something you can throttle. Open a bit or close a bit. I think too much air flow would have issues. open below will allow exchange via Gases flowing to a less saturated area. On my hive I build i considered a "pipe" with a "T" top. maybe 12-30 inch and adjust the height to create less or more chimney effect. 3/4 to 1 inch was my starting point. Give a try and let us know in the spring how they fared.
    GG

  7. #26
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    I have 2 2" screened round holes in the bottom and I have covers that can be attached over them to close/restrict.

    I also made a full-width quilt box for the top with sides that can be slid up to restrict the vents.

    And I have 2 frame-width screens that can replace frames.

    Layens in his book shows Winter venting with one frame removed from the end and the opening covered with burlap.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh00jfh View Post
    I have 2 2" screened round holes in the bottom and I have covers that can be attached over them to close/restrict.

    I also made a full-width quilt box for the top with sides that can be slid up to restrict the vents.

    And I have 2 frame-width screens that can replace frames.

    Layens in his book shows Winter venting with one frame removed from the end and the opening covered with burlap.
    that seems like lots of ventilation. depending on how windy the hive location is. I started with None, and am considering a 1.5 inch hole in a drawer, screened, and a 3/4 inch PVC pipe appx 20 inches, sticking out the top, VIA an end hole. I made mine for the Lang frames double deep so I have an air space between the top of the frames and the bottom of the boards going over the top, Drill out from there on the opposite end the bees are on.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    I agree, it could be too much ventilation. I imagine we'll choke most of it off for Winter.

    But bee heat creates moisture where it hits the outside cold air. Some folks with Langstroths like to tilt the hive forward so condensation runs down the front and drips out.

    Our hive is unoccupied for now - unless we get a Fall swarm, we'll put a slit or swarm in it next Spring

  10. #29
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh00jfh View Post
    I agree, it could be too much ventilation. I imagine we'll choke most of it off for Winter.

    But bee heat creates moisture where it hits the outside cold air. Some folks with Langstroths like to tilt the hive forward so condensation runs down the front and drips out.
    that is what I did was to tilt, the water ran out and froze a inch or 2 out the door , built up until the door way was all blocked with ICE. It was a 3/4 inch thick on the bottom board. Also once melted made a mess with the crumbs of wax and dead bees in the spring. Hence a screened enclosed drawer bottom. I have 2 with bees in so i'll have insight in the spring if it works. Solid does not in very cold conditions.
    GG

  11. #30
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    We've had good luck with wood-hip filled quilt boxes so far. The moisture hits the cold air on top of the chips after rising out of the hive.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    too much ventilation can be more stores consumed and a starve out , or late brood start and smallish cluster in the spring. Hard to pinpoint what causes these symptoms as many things can. In your trial ventilation try to make something you can throttle. Open a bit or close a bit. I think too much air flow would have issues. open below will allow exchange via Gases flowing to a less saturated area. On my hive I build i considered a "pipe" with a "T" top. maybe 12-30 inch and adjust the height to create less or more chimney effect. 3/4 to 1 inch was my starting point. Give a try and let us know in the spring how they fared.
    GG
    This was my problem last season and cost some of the losses (pretty sure).
    The technical issue - I have the follower boards that allow free air flow on three sides (bottom and the sides).
    This is too much if the winter turns hard (as it did the last season).
    For the coming cold season am planning to staple some material to the follower boards (creating gaskets) so to restrict air on the sides.

    As depicted here:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...47#post1713947

    I now changed my mind about complete and free access on three sides of the follower board (due to excessive ventilation in winter as I now believe).
    Instead, will provide 1-2 small holes directly through the board (warm way entrances through the board).
    Like so:
    FollowerBoardModified.jpg
    Last edited by GregV; 08-14-2019 at 09:50 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #32
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    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    This was my problem last season and cost some of the losses (pretty sure).
    The technical issue - I have the follower boards that allow free air flow on three sides (bottom and the sides).
    This is too much if the winter turns hard (as it did the last season).
    For the coming cold season am planning to staple some material to the follower boards (creating gaskets) so to restrict air on the sides.

    As depicted here:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...47#post1713947

    I now changed my mind about complete and free access on three sides of the follower board (due to excessive ventilation in winter as I now believe).
    Instead, will provide 1-2 small holes directly through the board (warm way entrances through the board).
    Like so:
    FollowerBoardModified.jpg
    Greg, see the last PIC on this page http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15.htm
    some sort of a gasket would do the trick, or maybe 2,, 1 firm and short and one bigger and soft, like inner tube and then burlap on top of it

  14. #33
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    Default Re: How do you ventilate Layens hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Greg, see the last PIC on this page http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15.htm
    some sort of a gasket would do the trick, or maybe 2,, 1 firm and short and one bigger and soft, like inner tube and then burlap on top of it
    Yes, something of the sort.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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