Will this approach work?
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  1. #1
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    Default Will this approach work?

    I have yet to try grafting, and am asking the question to see if my understanding is correct.
    Assume I have 4 day old larva in my hive and I move several larva to queen cups.
    - Is there a reason I cannot place these queen cups (vertically, upside down) in the hive from which they came and expect the cells to be drawn out? I know I need to remove them before they emerge, knowing the resident queen will attempt to kill the new queens.
    - Can I use a larva from another colony?

    thanks in advance - Mike

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  3. #2
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    Michael Palmer has a good intro video to sustainable queen rearing and cell builders then watch Richard Noel’s cell builder explained on YouTube. They both say it several times you cannot have a queen in a cell builder also you cannot have a newly emerged queen either. I had a cell builder I did not follow exactly and after my first round of grafts I attempted another and they cleaned them off. I found I had missed an emergency cell and I had a virgin queen running around.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Ah yes. That must be why they say to start a nuc without a queen, let them go 24 hours, so they realize they are queenless, then introduce the queen cell. thanks, Mike

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    You can have queencells nurtured in a queen right hive especially with a queen excluder . The general opinion is that a crowded, queenless box with mucho nurse bees will get you bigger cells and higher acceptance.
    IMHO

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Quote Originally Posted by amk View Post
    They both say it several times you cannot have a queen in a cell builder
    Ask 3 beekeepers, get 5 answers. But indeed you CAN have a queen in a cell builder. Watch the University of Guelph youtube videos on how they do queen rearing using a cloak board system. I've used a cloak board system here now for the last couple years, and it works well for us. Properly done the cloak board system allows us to do queenless start and queenright finish in the same colony, and continue to do so for multiple cycles thru the year.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    Ask 3 beekeepers, get 5 answers. But indeed you CAN have a queen in a cell builder.
    Absolutely right. There's a good example at: http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageId=278 and, there's a link at the bottom of that page to a paper by Wilkinson and Brown in which they go into more detail about that method.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    I had an interesting experience the other day. I had made a split and put a queen cell into the split from which the nuc raised a queen. A month after the queen had started laying and was doing a fine job, I discovered that the bees were drawing out the JZBZ queen cup that I had not removed from the hive and into which the queen had layed an egg. They were perhaps treating it as a supercedure situation. While they were drawing out that cell cup, the queen was still happily going about her business. So, yes, it could well be that if you graft into a cell cup and put it into the colony they may well treat it as a supercedure situation.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andhors View Post
    You can have queencells nurtured in a queen right hive especially with a queen excluder . The general opinion is that a crowded, queenless box with mucho nurse bees will get you bigger cells and higher acceptance.
    IMHO
    I just figured for this post it was quite obvious I didn’t mean there aren’t cute little ways around manipulating bees to think they are queenless. Fundamentally absolutely not can you have a queen in a cell builder and to say you can is wrong. Now you can put them above a Cloake board which makes the bees think they are queenless which your really trying to be cute about it with your wording because the top box thinks they are queenless so are they really queen right? Let’s not be stupid about these post. You stick a grafted frame in a hive that’s queen right or even in a hive that already has swarm cells or a newly emerged queen and see what happens.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Quote Originally Posted by amk View Post
    Let’s not be stupid about these post. You stick a grafted frame in a hive that’s queen right or even in a hive that already has swarm cells or a newly emerged queen and see what happens.

    I've done that years ago. Had a hive I thought was queenless, they had swarmed and it was 4 and a half weeks since swarm with no sign of a new queen. So what to do with them, I had a brand new set of kit for grafting, lets try it out, nothing to lose. I grafted a bar and put the frame into that colony. Pulled it up to look 24 hours later, this is what I found:-



    When I went back after cells should be capped, found 4 capped cells, and 2 frames of fresh young larvae. They were not queenless, just took a long time for the new queen to get going.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    In the normal course of events - i.e. when the hive is not suddenly made queenless and emergency q/cells are drawn as a result - queen-cells are always drawn under queenright conditions.

    Just because beekeepers have learned to trick the bees into producing large numbers of q/cells by creating queenless or pseudo-queenless conditions, don't lose sight of what happens under normal circumstances.

    In the link I gave, the grafts are placed above a queen excluder - in a fully queenright hive - which creates a sufficient reduction in pheromone to initiate the drawing of supersedure q/cells.

    Queenlessness isn't the only way to start q/cells.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  12. #11
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    All I’ve ever found is empty polished cups when I made that mistake. I would think most people want 80% plus acceptance not a few fluke acceptance. I feel like this is a debate in grade school where someone makes a statement and some kid comes up with the most ridiculous “what if” scenario. My frame in a queenless cell builder 2 days ago vs yours it’s pretty obvious which one I would want. I was still disappointed with the 76% acceptance I got but always room to improve. I apologize if this comes off rude but this is kind of an annoying discussion while weird things happen you do not want a queen etc in the same box as your graft and you should be extra careful to ensure it or else your waist if your time
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  13. #12
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Quote Originally Posted by amk View Post
    All I’ve ever found is empty polished cups when I made that mistake. I would think most people want 80% plus acceptance not a few fluke acceptance. I feel like this is a debate in grade school where someone makes a statement and some kid comes up with the most ridiculous “what if” scenario. My frame in a queenless cell builder 2 days ago vs yours it’s pretty obvious which one I would want. I was still disappointed with the 76% acceptance I got but always room to improve. I apologize if this comes off rude but this is kind of an annoying discussion while weird things happen you do not want a queen etc in the same box as your graft and you should be extra careful to ensure it or else your waist if your time
    Read the initial thread question. It is not a stupid question and the answer is that you can raise queencells in a queen right colony. May not be the best way to raise queens, but the discussion provides the opportunity to ponder the “why’s” and not just the “what is best” of the subject.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andhors View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by amk View Post
    All I’ve ever found is empty polished cups when I made that mistake. I would think most people want 80% plus acceptance not a few fluke acceptance. I feel like this is a debate in grade school where someone makes a statement and some kid comes up with the most ridiculous “what if” scenario. My frame in a queenless cell builder 2 days ago vs yours it’s pretty obvious which one I would want. I was still disappointed with the 76% acceptance I got but always room to improve. I apologize if this comes off rude but this is kind of an annoying discussion while weird things happen you do not want a queen etc in the same box as your graft and you should be extra careful to ensure it or else your waist if your time
    Read the initial thread question. It is not a stupid question and the answer is that you can raise queencells in a queen right colony. May not be the best way to raise queens, but the discussion provides the opportunity to ponder the “why’s” and not just the “what is best” of the subject.
    I never said the op was a stupid question read my post. To the op by all means graft away into queenright colonies I’m sorry I even said anything.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Wow. everyone has an opinion. I'll just have to see for myself. Nothing to lose. Thanks all for the comments - Mike

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Go Mike! It’s your “ant Farm!” Mess with it and let us know what you learn!

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    I'm running a TBH and 8 of the 30 bars are going gangbusters. There is currently a Follower Board at bar 10.

    So if I understand the preceding discussion.... . I can place a Queen Excluder (QE) at bar 9, and charged Queen Cells (QC) at bar 10, followed by 2-3 bars of old comb and then the follower board, and workers will elbow their way thru the QE and draw out the QCs, despite the fact there is a queen in residence at about bar 3. Now,once she emerges, will the workers treat the area past the QE as a separate hive (Yes, I better get out there and drill an entrance for them)? - Mike

  18. #17
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    I will speak out of place here just to enjoy the scorn of the mob. Lol.
    The QC in a queenright colony is related to the queen mandibular pheromone not penetrating far past the queen excluder. One frame probably won’t do it.
    Drill another entrance and use the follower board as a Cloake board in place of the excluder (making them queenless). Once the QC’s are going, remove the Cloake board and replace the queen excluder. Cage the QC’s to avoid mayhem when they emerge. Watch Richard Noel’s queen rearing video. It is a wonderful lesson on the importance of high bee concentration plus high nurse bee number plus queenlessness plus nutrition. He was making a butt load of queen though.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andhors View Post
    I will speak out of place here just to enjoy the scorn of the mob. Lol.
    The QC in a queenright colony is related to the queen mandibular pheromone not penetrating far past the queen excluder. One frame probably won’t do it.
    Drill another entrance and use the follower board as a Cloake board in place of the excluder (making them queenless). Once the QC’s are going, remove the Cloake board and replace the queen excluder. Cage the QC’s to avoid mayhem when they emerge. Watch Richard Noel’s queen rearing video. It is a wonderful lesson on the importance of high bee concentration plus high nurse bee number plus queenlessness plus nutrition. He was making a butt load of queen though.
    The problem I'm trying to avoid is that I THINK I may have insufficient workers to build out the QC, so I was hoping workers would cross the QE.
    As I was looking for a definition of Cloake board, I came upon an explanation similar to yours (https://honeybeesuite.com/using-the-...-raise-queens/).
    So between the article and your explanation, all I"m missing appears to be an additional entrance ( and a grafted queen, which I hope to resolve this morning). Thanks, Mike

  20. #19
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andhors View Post
    I will speak out of place here just to enjoy the scorn of the mob. Lol.
    The QC in a queenright colony is related to the queen mandibular pheromone not penetrating far past the queen excluder. One frame probably won’t do it.
    Drill another entrance and use the follower board as a Cloake board in place of the excluder (making them queenless). Once the QC’s are going, remove the Cloake board and replace the queen excluder. Cage the QC’s to avoid mayhem when they emerge. Watch Richard Noel’s queen rearing video. It is a wonderful lesson on the importance of high bee concentration plus high nurse bee number plus queenlessness plus nutrition. He was making a butt load of queen though.
    Also, I notice you say nothing about moving uncapped brood to keep the QC company.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Will this approach work?

    Uncapped brood should draw the nurse bees.

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