Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25
  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    144

    Default Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    I have been listening to this multiple times in order to make sure I get it right, and I'm not a TF Beek yet, but have dreams of 'someday'.

    I think it sounds really smart and effective...I'm curious, how many of you successful TF Beeks rough up the interior walls of your hives to get the bees to apply a propolis envelope?

    https://youtu.be/Xsj8mB4KKZs

    Marla Spivak is my new beekeeping hero!

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by BumblingBeek View Post
    I have been listening to this multiple times in order to make sure I get it right, and I'm not a TF Beek yet, but have dreams of 'someday'.

    I think it sounds really smart and effective...I'm curious, how many of you successful TF Beeks rough up the interior walls of your hives to get the bees to apply a propolis envelope?

    https://youtu.be/Xsj8mB4KKZs

    Marla Spivak is my new beekeeping hero!
    First and foremost effort and time should be spent on figuring out your genetics and local population status.
    I say focus on that first.

    There was a propolis discussion recently - search.

    Personally, I want to go as far as creating and populating the real log hives so that the bees can live as if feral (propolis, molds, ants, you name it).
    But this is only a component in setting up a pseudo-feral population in my area - the key component worthy the time spent.
    Have no time or energy to be "roughing up the interior walls" of my hives.

    PS: correction, I did invest some time into these walls in one experimental hive - this is for all - propolis and flora and fauna
    20180924_120233.jpg
    20180924_111209.jpg
    Last edited by GregV; 06-25-2019 at 03:31 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Gould, OK
    Posts
    119

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...en-on-Propolis
    you may like to lesson to the video in this thread. It sounds like it may help.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    144

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by dr4ngas View Post
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...en-on-Propolis
    you may like to lesson to the video in this thread. It sounds like it may help.
    I made that post yesterday, lol.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by dr4ngas View Post
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...en-on-Propolis
    you may like to lesson to the video in this thread. It sounds like it may help.
    There is nothing new.
    You re-posted the same thing as in the original post.

    Now - these researchers should be going back to the Old World and study why is it the Grey Caucasian bees are the propolis-crazy but the Russian bees are just so-so-propolis crazy (while being appropriately winter-hardy for MN)?
    Why is it the Grey Caucasions are NOT varroa-resistant IF they are so propolis-crazy?

    Another thing - if you are talking of the hive wall roughing up, why not talk of the frame designs that work the same and even better (talking nearly touching frame sides and bars - that creates tons of propolis - I do this).

    I repeat myself over and over - the researchers should be looking at historic bee sources and understand the origins of the specific bee race traits (including the propolising traits), NOT just the generic North American melting pot.
    Marla talks of yet another new line of bees she wants to breed - the propolis-hoarding bees I guess.
    Well, that has no value to me; not getting onto a bee-buying wagon.

    But Marla should be buying a ticket to Caucasus region and just look around there and see what is it going there and why is the Caucasians are so propolis-crazy.
    But she would not go there as she says it is not that important - that's what she said in the audio clip.
    I guess she is just into another bee-breeding project for any old reason (grant-money availability or whatever).
    Last edited by GregV; 06-25-2019 at 04:36 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Thought about this some more...
    Did you notice the commercials about propolis inserted into the presentation?
    I surely did.

    All in all - every time someone proposes to yet breed another "magic" bee (propolis-generating bee in this case) - stear clear away.
    Bees are not dogs or cows - one can not maintain the pure breed for any significant length of time.
    Bee breeding is not a sustainable thing and only a way to get people hooked into the bee buying program.

    The only valid reason to buy some bee - to introduce the genetics into your local population and hope the traits persist within the population (no guaranties will be given).
    The only traits that really persist in a location - those that are beneficial in the local climate and local ecology.
    Massive propolis hoarding may or may not be such thing in every given location.
    This is why I am saying - a good researcher will travel to the Caucasus region and will study WHY the local bees hoard the propolis (what are the local conditions that prompt such behavior?).
    Any follow up steps will (or will NOT) be taken using the information gathered.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
    Posts
    1,163

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    This is an interesting discussion, BB. Thank you for posting.

    While I too consider propolis a meritorious addition to any colony set-up based on the current body of research, I have been surprised this year at how differently colonies in the same yard (and even swarms from the same stock) approach their propolis gathering and curing when hived in very similar set-ups. As an example, in my meager yard I have colonies that now range from virtually no propolis to speak of other than rock-hard deposits made for the specific purpose of entombing something (i.e. hive beetles) to colonies that seem to fill every crack and crevice (no matter how small) with a soft, salt-water taffy consistency goo and various iterations in between.

    So like GregV I surmise that propolis additions are largely genetically-derived and can be somewhat exploited by the environment given to them (in the case of managed hives).

    The question in my mind is how reliably and sustainably can one expect that a specific modification will produce a predictable response, particularly in light of how fluid the genetic predisposition for this mechanism appears to be?

    Good post- I've enjoyed reading and considering your thought-provoking questions.

    Russ

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
    Posts
    1,163

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Duplicate
    Last edited by Litsinger; 06-26-2019 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Duplicate

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    .........I have been surprised this year at how differently colonies in the same yard (and even swarms from the same stock) approach their propolis gathering ......Russ
    Indication of the "melting pot" genetics we live in.
    If left alone for 50-100 years (no long distance trading and migration - the impossible fit) - we could very well start seeing some particular local traits forming and converging (sort of - distinct Kentucky bees vs. Wisconsin bees vs. Alaska bees).
    Unfortunately, this is not meant to be if things continue as-is now.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    2,998

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Yes we live with a melting pot of bee genetics. Yes we could benefit if they were permitted to stabilize for 100 years. It is not possible for this to occur with current practices.

    I am not totally convinced that propolis is a necessary part of colony defense. The Egyptian bee - A. m. Lamarckii - is remarkably hygienic and shows significant disease and pest tolerance. It is noted for collecting no propolis at all. Combining this information with the known propensity of Caucasian bees to collect propolis yet having relatively little pest resistance, we might conclude that hygienic behavior is more important than propolis collection for pest resistance. Selecting for hygienic behavior has been done with every major geographic race of bees. A.m. Mellifera Mellifera is interesting in this regard with little or no hygienic potential. Italian and particularly Carniolan bees have relatively strong hygienic traits that readily respond to selection.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Importantly:
    The very Grey Caucasion bee is a propolis hoarder AND is rather highly susceptible to Nozema and EFB/AFB.
    Both traits are present at once; this is a commonly known fact.
    Why and how?

    And so the propolis itself needs understanding AND propolis hoarding needs understanding.
    Breeding a propolis-hoarding bee without knowledge of underlying facts - is waste of time and money and rather a strange proposition (from a highly regarded scientist, of all people).

    Unless - bee-breeding gymnastics is the goal of itself - my theory - it is.
    Surely, it must be fun time.

    Selling a propolis-hoarding bee is another practical goal (hence the propolis selling ads).
    I am sure propolis has medicinal uses, I try to use it myself too, however little I understand how and if it works.
    So the economics of the propolis are included too.

    Is it worth it within a bigger picture of un-sustainability?
    No, it is not worth it.
    Last edited by GregV; 06-27-2019 at 08:19 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
    Posts
    1,163

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    ... we could very well start seeing some particular local traits forming and converging (sort of - distinct Kentucky bees...).
    Good observations, GregV. We'll know for sure that we've got Kentucky bees when they start saying y'all and root for the UK Wildcats .

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
    Posts
    1,163

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Yes we live with a melting pot of bee genetics. Yes we could benefit if they were permitted to stabilize for 100 years. It is not possible for this to occur with current practices..
    Great feedback as always, Fusion_Power. Given that you have worked hard for many years at developing a stable localized stock in your immediate vicinity, are you seeing any behavioral and/or phenotypical trends emerging in succeeding generations?

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    All this propolis is making my bee work harder.
    20190817_132409.jpg
    20190817_132431.jpg

    But I am letting the bees having at it anyway.
    They want it, they can have it.

    Is it making them mite-resistant?
    No. Not that I can see.
    The crappy bees will remain crappy - no matter how much propolis they do.

    Is it helping with anything at all?
    Outside of plugging the holes - donno.

    But I will be harvesting lots of propolis for my own usages.
    That's for sure.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Madison County, Al, USA
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    (Not very good editing.. I'll try again)

    Hello, I hope that I am not interrupting the discussion but this is a subject that I am very interested in.

    This may be old news to you guys but there has been some pretty good research into this topic. Renata Borba, PhD has done a couple of lectures on the subject https://youtu.be/MefRdj5vR6Y

    You can also download some of the research from the University of Minnesota https://www.beelab.umn.edu/https%3A/...s/publications
    Last edited by falc; 08-20-2019 at 12:58 PM.

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by falc View Post
    Hello, I hope that I am not interrupting the discussion but this is a subject that I am very interested in.

    This may be old news to you guys but there has been some pretty good research into this topic, notably at the University of Minnesota Bee research lab. Renata Borba, PhD has done a couple of lectures on the subject https://youtu.be/MefRdj5vR6Y

    You can also download some of the research from the University of Minnesota https://www.beelab.umn.edu/https%3A/...s/publications
    At present, the parasitic mite is by far is the most harmful bee pest.
    This mite does not directly care of propolis much if at all.
    If it did, the propolis generating bee races would be mite-free (and the races that do not generate much propolis would die off).
    Obviously - this is not true.

    That being said, the propolis thing is just a next "shiny object" since this is what the scientists are about.
    Nothing new.
    Europians and Asians have been researching propolis for decades already.
    The unwashed folk have been using propolis for hundreds and thousands of years.

    The make up of propolis is highly variable per the specific location's flora.
    Based on this alone, talking of some generic propolis is senseless.

    I am all for propolis and intend to harvest as much chemical free propolis as I can (exactly why I do not use the chems).
    I just don't approve of the bicycle inventing - as if no one knew about it - UNTIL now, gee.

    What is different now, however, technology availability - this is new and is to be taken advantage of to understand the inner-makings of propolis and to discover and describe new facts.
    Of course, I unfortunately predict, someone will develop "artificial propolis" and it will be for sale in Walmart - the same old story.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by falc View Post
    ..
    Sorry falc for spooking you.
    Did not mean it.
    Thanks for the resources, I will check them out anyway - never know.
    Surely others will check too.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Sorry falc for spooking you.
    Did not mean it.
    Thanks for the resources, I will check them out anyway - never know.
    Surely others will check too.
    I actually watched this while lunching:
    Renata Borba, PhD has done a couple of lectures on the subject https://youtu.be/MefRdj5vR6Y
    Immediate comment:

    - it was stated how propolis is losing the bio-activity over time;
    months of exposure to elements (especially years) will make propolis less valuable to the "bee health"

    - IF bees really know of and are looking for the health affects of the propolis - they always should be collecting the freshest possible resin from the plants.

    - well, let me state right here - bees extensively scavenge old propolis from old equipment (that makes no sense - harvesting the "used-up propolis" because it is not as "healthy" anymore)
    in fact, I can point at a bee and tell what kind of propolis she is carrying - old, scavenged propolis OR fresh resin just off the plant - easy to tell;
    in fact, I can also state I see a lot of bees bringing in old, scavenged propolis - a lot of scavenging going on (makes little sense to scavenge IF bees are looking for the most potent propolis materials)

    So the entire subject of propolis scavenging has been omitted as if it does not exist (unless I missed it).
    That alone should change the context of "the bees actively collecting propolis for its health properties".

    Bees just need good, sticky glue.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  20. #19
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    144

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by falc View Post
    (Not very good editing.. I'll try again)

    Hello, I hope that I am not interrupting the discussion but this is a subject that I am very interested in.

    This may be old news to you guys but there has been some pretty good research into this topic. Renata Borba, PhD has done a couple of lectures on the subject https://youtu.be/MefRdj5vR6Y

    You can also download some of the research from the University of Minnesota https://www.beelab.umn.edu/https%3A/...s/publications
    Thank you falc for the info, I'm also fascinated with this subject, and am conducting my own experiments in each hive to see what type of roughed up surface they coat with the most propolis. Today, hopefully, I will be able to combine my (2) 5-frame Saskatraz nucs into the Michael Palmer style double nuc I constructed for overwintering them. These guys got really late starts on building up their colonies this year, so I'm going to build them upward rather than outward, and allow them to share cluster heat through the central divider. I have attached a propolis trap to one wall which each colony will have their own half of, and another wall I used 1/8" stainless steel hardware cloth. The remaining 2 walls I manually roughed up with a handsaw and a drill. Hopefully, tomorrow, I will be able to move my 10-frame Caucasian hive from their smooth inner-surface brood box to the replacement one I roughed up in the same way. They I'm going to have to rough up that one, to move my Survivor Colony into. Each colony has screened bottom boards, and each has shown ankle biting on the dead mites, so I'm super stoked about that! I'm still going to perform OA treatment, as I am not exactly in an ideal situation to be completely treatment free. However, I like that the propolis envelope can help keep immune systems quieter, and the materials I stapled to the inside of my boxes can be removed and replaced with fresh a few times a year to keep the bees bringing in fresh propolis. I like how Ronata suggests it would be interesting to see if doing this in the fall helps to keep the propolis from becoming biologically ineffective due to age through the winter.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Boaz, KY, USA
    Posts
    1,163

    Default Re: Are TF BeeKeepers Stimulating Colonies to Apply Propolis Envelopes in Hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by falc View Post
    Hello, I hope that I am not interrupting the discussion but this is a subject that I am very interested in.
    Falc:

    I wanted to begin by saying 'welcome' to this forum, and thank you for posting.

    I am looking forward to watching the video you posted at my earliest opportunity.

    For my part, I am in the 'can't hurt' camp, so I am not displeased when I see lots of propolis build-up.

    Besides, I love the smell of propolis and think someone should make a cologne out of it- think it would be a market winner?

    Just wanted to welcome you to the forum and encourage you to keep posting. Good luck with your end-of-season beekeeping efforts.

    Russ

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •