Some graphs not capped?
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  1. #1
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    Default Some graphs not capped?

    We grafted last friday and put them in the builder. All should have been capped 3 days ago according to my calendar. Went in to remove them today to put in incubator and found 4 that had plump larvae in them and accepted but not capped. Don't think the selected larvae could be 3 days too young as that would be eggs. any other reason why they would not be capped ? plenty off bees and food in the builder.
    Terrence

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  3. #2
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    Covington County, Alabama, USA
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Terrence: You are referencing a "builder." Can you give us more info on what you are referring to?

    The result you are seeing would be the same result likely seen by placing a graft frame into a "Starter Cell/Builder" and not transferring it from the Starter to the Finisher after a couple of days. But I don't know what method you are using for your starter/finisher.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Terrence: You are referencing a "builder." Can you give us more info on what you are referring to?

    The result you are seeing would be the same result likely seen by placing a graft frame into a "Starter Cell/Builder" and not transferring it from the Starter to the Finisher after a couple of days. But I don't know what method you are using for your starter/finisher.
    I have a starter cell/builder colony that i'm running. Placing new frames of capped larvae into it from other hives every five days. The cells i'm talking about are all brand new white comb and just not capped. I don't believe they built and then started taking them apart but not sure how to tell that. I let the same colony accept and build the queens then i move to incubator when they are capped. Its been a week since i put them into the hive.
    Terrence

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaizen View Post
    I let the same colony accept and build the queens then i move to incubator when they are capped.
    Terrence: I assume your builder is queenless? Or is the queen excluded, but still communicating pheremone in the hive?

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Terrence: I assume your builder is queenless? Or is the queen excluded, but still communicating pheremone in the hive?
    its queenless. This is the 3rd round of grafts i have done. I had 20 capped completely today but a few as described earlier. I removed the capped and put it into the incubator and left the uncapped in the hive. Just wondering why a few would not be capped 3 days after they should have been.
    Terrence

  7. #6
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    Jan 2015
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    Williamsport, PA
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    I used one just like you setup earlier in the season and everything happened right on schedule with the calendar. I also kept it going for a 2nd round of grafts but let them keep a cell and become a nuc after that. The starter/finisher* got mean as heck and no fun to be near after 2 rounds. It was really strong though.

    I'm going to build another one tomorrow for 2 more rounds of grafts from my good queens.

    *I assume you are talking about the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher referenced a few threads under this one.

  8. #7
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    Apr 2017
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    Aylett, Virginia
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    I use a 5 frame nuc as a starter/finisher. During a grafting workshop I recently attended, it was suggested that two full rounds was all you could reasonably expect. I am pulling the capped cells tomorrow and dropping the second round Sunday while the capped cells finish in the incubator for another 3 days. After the second round, two cells will remain in the nuc and be allowed to emerge.

    To your original question, have the nights been cooler? And are there still a ship load of bees in the starter? Thinking of things that might slow the development of the larvae.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in PA View Post
    I used one just like you setup earlier in the season and everything happened right on schedule with the calendar. I also kept it going for a 2nd round of grafts but let them keep a cell and become a nuc after that. The starter/finisher* got mean as heck and no fun to be near after 2 rounds. It was really strong though.

    I'm going to build another one tomorrow for 2 more rounds of grafts from my good queens.

    *I assume you are talking about the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher referenced a few threads under this one.
    Although i was planning on making some queens this year this builder kind of made itself. I had a swarm at another yard that i caught and brought to my home yard. Then it swarmed two days after i hived it and i brought that small swarm to another yard. What was left at my yard was 2 deeps with a good number of bees. I put in 3 frames so far with capped brood to keep it going. There is no shortage of nurse bees. I'm going to do one more round and then call it a year.
    I will be going out to check them in awhile and expect they are fully capped. If not they get tossed. the other day the Larvae was HUGE. I'm wondering if perhaps we grafted some eggs and since they were behind the timeframe of the rest of the hive they just did not get capped. Its just strange as i expected the hive to remove any that were not the right age.
    Terrence

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I use a 5 frame nuc as a starter/finisher. During a grafting workshop I recently attended, it was suggested that two full rounds was all you could reasonably expect. I am pulling the capped cells tomorrow and dropping the second round Sunday while the capped cells finish in the incubator for another 3 days. After the second round, two cells will remain in the nuc and be allowed to emerge.

    To your original question, have the nights been cooler? And are there still a ship load of bees in the starter? Thinking of things that might slow the development of the larvae.
    While i don't have an overflowing hive like i've seen (aka the self lowering frame) its enough to do the job. I'm using the queens for myself so not overly concerned with big huge cells. Also some of my best layers are small. Nope weather was fine for them to draw out 15 or so other graphs that i moved to the cooker. just a few stragglers had me scratching my head.
    Terrence

  11. #10
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    i say you did a good job at selecting just hatched larvae and your bees didn't read the book on bee math.

    if one accepts queen cells are capped on day 8 +/- 1 day, and if you happened to graft just hatched larvae last friday at 3.5 days since laying on day 0, then today would be day 11, just 2 days later than expected and not that crazy late.

    did you find them capped today?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Terrence, I was just thinking about hive temps. If I drop the incubator down a few degrees, I can delay emergence by a day. Figure the same could happen in the hive. Do not think it is possible to graft an egg. No royal jelly in the cell. Hope all were capped when you checked today.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Terrence, I was just thinking about hive temps. If I drop the incubator down a few degrees, I can delay emergence by a day. Figure the same could happen in the hive. Do not think it is possible to graft an egg. No royal jelly in the cell. Hope all were capped when you checked today.
    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i say you did a good job at selecting just hatched larvae and your bees didn't read the book on bee math.

    if one accepts queen cells are capped on day 8 +/- 1 day, and if you happened to graft just hatched larvae last friday at 3.5 days since laying on day 0, then today would be day 11, just 2 days later than expected and not that crazy late.

    did you find them capped today?
    Nope they are still just the tips open for the 3 i remember. Healthy larvae in them and bees piled on them. And they are building up more that they did nothing with till now?? I didn't look in these as i didn't have my smoker and they were not pleased. Wondering if they are just desperately making queens even though the larvae is way too old. Found their feeder empty. Maybe that contributed. Went to feed them and found 10 gallons fermenting. uggg. Going to keep these separate and see what comes of them. There is enough bees in there that the hive temp around them should be normal. Not abnormal temps in my area for the last week or so.
    My daughter did these as i just could not get them with any tool i had. The previous round i grafted and honestly i found it easier to larvae without a lot of royal jelly. Maybe monday i'll give it a final round of grafting
    Terrence

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Some graphs not capped?

    Well mystery solved. They tricked me. They packed in the royal jelly to a ridiculous level that looked like a growing larvae. Look at these beautiful cells. No larvae in them. Never thought they would go through that much effort.
    IMG_4926.jpg
    IMG_4924.jpg
    opened this one to find this glob of bee. very strange.
    IMG_4931.jpg
    Terrence

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