Set It and Forget It? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Not my feelings, it was your comment about Squarepeg that was callous. Where were you while he was fighting a battle with efb that was obviously imported to his yard from a neighboring apiary run amok? You think bacteria just spontaneously generate? Years of hard work were destroyed by the carelessness of someone who apparently couldnt be bothered with taking care of their own livestock, which is what bees are in a managed apiary.

    Edit, I'll put it another way. Suppose YOU contracted an STD. Do you think your spouse would belive that it "just happened", or would they correctly assume that it is because you had "close" contact with an infected person? SP's bees had contact with someone else's infected bees. The only thing appalling is that you do not seem to understand how EFB is spread. Here's a hint, it is not airborne.
    Last edited by JWPalmer; 06-18-2019 at 08:51 PM.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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  3. #62
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    Rosebud Missouri
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    <p>
    jw Maybe I missed it but I did not see where squares neibors hives were tested, just that twelve hives had died over three years. Even if the last ones were tested, who knows where it came from? It is a logical thing to think about being possible or maybe even logical but has not been proven by what I have seen that the cause came from there. I see the arguement that there is risk in all the movement of bees that is higher then only dealing with what shows up naturally. Still, diesease does show up and dissapear in other wild animals that are not transported all over the world like bees are. Rabies are not airborn. I do see the fear of putting a million hives in one place and then after, sending them all over the country. I also see that a person that wants bees is going to buy them from those guys and those guys always sell out and if that does not change then how can somebody grip if somebody else takes advantage of the bees for sell? You going to give him yours so he does not have to buy them from transport bees. You might have enough bees to do that if you turn into the transport bee guy. If you turn into the transport guy, you might lose more swarms in one year then the guy who lost 12 hives over four years. It may have came from the other guys bees, maybe, but I did not see proof given, just resonable suggestion. Just saying. Cheers gww</p>
    <p>
    Ps The reason there are no spaces in my post right now is cause my computer has a virus like bees get cause I put it on line with the rest of you.<img alt="" height="16" src="https://www.beesource.com/forums/clientscript/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/images/smilies/smile.gif" title="" width="23" /></p>
    zone 5b

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Too funny Glenn. But yeah, a computer that never goes on the internet can't catch a virus either.

    I don't think SP knows for sure where the EFB originated, and I think it would be hard to prove which specific hive or apiary was the first for that region. But it had to be from imported infected hives and there is a good case to be made for it coming from commercial bees regularly given OTC to control (mask) the symptoms of EFB so that the hives appear to be healthy. So if someone suddenly had a bunch of new hives from outside sources, it stands to reason that any new pathogens to the area came with them. Not saying that is a problem in and of itself, but combining it with lax beekeeping i.e., set and forget, can take a managable situation and turn it into an epidemic.

    Hope all is well with you and your bees.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    jw
    My bees are doing ok I think but contrary to what I thought, a wet year is not going to produce a banner honey year.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  6. #65
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    I know I would not blame another beekeeper not knot knowing where it came from!
    i've recognized and what is reflected in my comments is there is no way to trace the source of the efb that resulted in the death and destruction of 2/3rds of my inventory of bees and equipment.

    the current count is 4 'new' beekeepers having had a total of 17 imported colonies collapse after not being mangaged properly and not being prevented from getting robbed out by other bees.

    i have been careful to say that these collapses represent the 'most likely' source for the efb and have not assigned blame to any one of those beekeepers in particular.

    in my post above that you have taken exception to, it is the practice of irresponsible beekeeping that i am blaming for what likely could have been a preventable and terribly costly experience.

    this thread is about 'setting and forgetting' and i happen to be in the camp which thinks that amounts to being irresponsible. anyone who has followed my posts for awhile will know that i have expressed this concern for years, long before my encounter with efb.

    i mentioned american foulbrood because in my jurisdiction just like in most jurisdictions the potential impact a beekeeper can have over neighboring bees is so great that the law provides for the seizure and destruction of one's personal property should afb be found.

    now that efb has morphed into an entity that may also infect the equipment for months and years resulting in the need for destruction, it may be time to update the laws to reflect that as well.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Your insensitive and callous remarks makes me wish you hadn't started.
    Bit harsh I think. You do not judge a hive as too hot upon one check. Reminds me of the old "Bond " debates.
    Time will tell if your read is correct.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  8. #67
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    Spring Hill, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Not my feelings, it was your comment about Squarepeg that was callous. Where were you while he was fighting a battle with efb that was obviously imported to his yard from a neighboring apiary run amok? You think bacteria just spontaneously generate? Years of hard work were destroyed by the carelessness of someone who apparently couldnt be bothered with taking care of their own livestock, which is what bees are in a managed apiary.

    Edit, I'll put it another way. Suppose YOU contracted an STD. Do you think your spouse would belive that it "just happened", or would they correctly assume that it is because you had "close" contact with an infected person? SP's bees had contact with someone else's infected bees. The only thing appalling is that you do not seem to understand how EFB is spread. Here's a hint, it is not airborne.
    Efb bacteria, just like Afb spores can remain dormant in a hive for years. Who is to say one of his hives did not have the bacteria from the get go?
    But then again, you assume I know nothing!

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    Efb bacteria, just like Afb spores can remain dormant in a hive for years.
    can you provide a scientific study that has shown this?

    i've been searching like crazy for one and have come up short so far.

    in personal communication with a few of our country's leading bee scientists about it they say they aren't sure and their estimates on how long efb remains viable on equipment vary quite a bit.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #69
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Question to squarepeg:

    Wouldn't you agree that the ultimate "set-it-and-forget-it" bees are the feral ones?
    The ones you are so fortunate to have around you?
    As I see it, those forgotten, left alone bees are actually of a huge benefit.

    What about Fusion_Power - deliberately releasing swarms into the vicinity?
    Is it not setting up the ultimate "set-it-and-forget-it" population?
    I think this is exactly what it is.

    I can only dream of a strong, local feral bee population - the ultimate "set-it-and-forget-bee" population.
    Got none of these in any significance.
    Wish I had.

    To be clear - setting and forgetting an imported bee colony is likely to fail and result in time/resource waste/possible parasite spread.
    It is reasonable to assume that OP did not even think of this prospective, but hey - let me bring this up.

    IF properly done, what is wrong with the "setting and forgetting"?
    Nothing really.

    PS:
    The real, massive issues are - 1)cross-continent bee sales and 2)cross-continent migratory beekeeping.
    These are the real negative issues to talk about.
    All else is much less significant.
    Last edited by GregV; 06-19-2019 at 08:05 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame experimentation.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    I have 6 hives (Double Lang deep and 1 medium no excluder) placed in the back of a 70 acre woods. They have been there for 6 years. I have never had better brood producing hives then them. They have NEVER been treated for anything. They have NEVER been fed. I have NEVER taken surplus honey from them. I do take 5 frames of solid brood from each in March and use the frames to make nucs by adding a queen cell (Grafted from these hives). For the rest of the year they are left alone. Never even opened.
    Unfortunately, the tone of a message board post is inaudible, so we all seem to tend to read the worst into a stranger's intentions. With that said, I assure you that I do not intend to challenge your statement above, but rather only discuss a possibility of what is happening in the back of that 70 acre field because it interests me greatly and I have a lot of beekeeping friends that share similar experiences with me. I hope you will believe me regarding my intentions, but that will be up to you.

    I do not doubt your account of these hives. Again, I know many whom I trust and call friends with similar experiences. I do have a competing theory that may or may not be occurring. Going into a hive once a year (in your case, March to harvest frames) is unlikely to give you any real feedback of mite tolerance or survival at all for any distinct colony that has established in those boxes. Your description is that these 6 hives are surrounded by both feral bees and managed stock. Your climate (which is similar to mine) can have swarming from February to October. You could have a typical mite collapse cycle (18 to 24 months) occur routinely, leaving a perfect swarm trap for the next feral or managed colony to move in for the first swarm in Spring -- or whenever.

    Personally, I think this model is successful beekeeping. It is not the way I do it. I will refrain comment about mite breeding because that has been covered here. But I do not think a beekeeper can claim to have no lost hives due to mites, while at the same time stating that they only enter their hives only once a year. You could be right. But I don't see how you can be certain of the statement.

  12. #71
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    Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    My opinion is to ďSet it- Donít forget it.Ē I have learned a lot over the past seven years, both from experience and from asking questions of other beekeepers and reading posts on this forum. Acknowledge that I have seven intense years of study under my beltónot 20 or 30 so there is a lot left to learn.

    It is definitely possible to have hives that thrive without routine interaction between the hive and the beekeeper. However, it takes at least several seasons to determine how to manage hives in any locality. To understand your locality it takes a few significant losses and developing approaches that can be gleaned from websites and mentors, like a commercial guy or Randy Oliverís scientific beekeeping. Take a facts based approach to mite control. I have learned how to keep bees in places that I only occasionally visit because I am a Soldier and am often not home for extended periods. I also believe that hives less intensively managed tend to do betteróif they get treatments for mites at the right times of year and with the right treatments. My hives that I have failed to treat on schedule, based on facts regarding mite counts, in my locality have all failed and I ensure that I can inspect my colonies at certain key points in the year or arrange for others to do so. Hives that donít get split, managed for swarms, at the right time of year do their own thing and that may not be good for the local bee population.

    Key Points:

    1. Take the time to understand the local conditions where you plan to place your bees. That involves routine inspections and mite counts at reasonable intervals. Maybe not achievable for a 3.5hr drive.
    2. Have a partner that can beekeep on your behalf when you canít make the trip. Develop a network.
    3. If this is no longer sustainable then cease your operation in that areaófor the sake of other beekeepers and to reduce the transmission of mites and unaddressed disease.

    Observations on the posts in this forum
    1. Negativity, blaming, shaming people for their posts or naivetť will only make new beekeepers less willing to come to experienced folks for virtual mentorship.
    2. There is probably a decent amount of commercial value to the interest in beekeeping that generates all these new beekeepers. More people to sell bees to drives up the cost of packages, queens. The good feelings that people associate with bees and beekeepers makes bee vomit (aka honey) much more valuable than any other yellow sugar syrup at your local farmers markets.
    3. Any beekeeper who claims to have never failed to prevent swarming, created a mite bomb due to a mistake or neglect, or moved a hive into an area with another more experienced beekeeper is probably fooling themselves.

    So letís be nice here on this forum.

    Bottom Line: Donít do the remote beekeeping thing without putting in the time to develop a strategy that is likely to work. You can set itóbut donít forget it.

    Thanks to all the folks on the forum that have helped me over the years- wittingly or unwittingly

    Ollie

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    Hence the reason for not posting!
    If they do not agree with your way, You are considered a "Dirty Apiary"

    Can you show proof that bees cannot learn to defend themselves against the mites like they have other problems for the past few thousand years?
    Yet you criticize someone that is trying!
    You see if you do not post frequently It is trottet1 Opinion that you are a useless non contributor.
    Quote Originally Posted by trottet1 View Post
    And yet you posted this garbage. 3 total posts in 4 years and this is one of them. I've learned a lot from many of the "wipes" here and have taken nothing away from your contributions, or lack there of.

    Thanks for nothing.

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Question to squarepeg:
    answer is 'sort of' greg.

    the difference is that the wild-type feral colonies by their nature prefer to put a mile or so distance between themselves when they swarm.

    having as many as sunkool has at one location would never occur in nature, so assuming the bees should be able to cope with that 'naturally' may or may not pan out.

    in addition to the radically lower colony density the ferals enjoy, we don't really understand all there is to know about how much healthier a tree cavity might be than our man-made hives, or to what degree never being disturbed might confer some kind of advantage.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    What is funny is, I have offered my brother in law and my cousen a hive. They both live in the country and I told them, just put a little space on the hives in the spring and if they make anything above a certain number of boxes, steal it and just crush and strain. If the bees die, you just won&#39;t get anything. I said it would be about free to do. I have traps set at both of thier houses.
    They both turned me down I think due to bee intimidation and having jobs and it still being easier just to get honey from me or the store. I would have gave them the stuff and not felt bad about it.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  16. #75
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    May 2016
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    Spring Hill, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    can you provide a scientific study that has shown this?

    i've been searching like crazy for one and have come up short so far.

    in personal communication with a few of our country's leading bee scientists about it they say they aren't sure and their estimates on how long efb remains viable on equipment vary quite a bit.

    Scientific study? None that I know of.

    "Bee Brood diseases are caused by fungi, bacteria and viruses and can affect both sealed and unsealed brood. In their dormant form brood diseases can exist in virtually every beehive, or are just waiting outside."


    https://beekeepers.amazingbees.com.a...-diseases.html

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by oliver.karp View Post
    My opinion is to “Set it- Don’t forget it.” I have learned a lot over the past seven years, both from experience and from asking questions of other beekeepers and reading posts on this forum. Acknowledge that I have seven intense years of study under my belt—not 20 or 30 so there is a lot left to learn.

    It is definitely possible to have hives that thrive without routine interaction between the hive and the beekeeper. However, it takes at least several seasons to determine how to manage hives in any locality. To understand your locality it takes a few significant losses and developing approaches that can be gleaned from websites and mentors, like a commercial guy or Randy Oliver’s scientific beekeeping. Take a facts based approach to mite control. I have learned how to keep bees in places that I only occasionally visit because I am a Soldier and am often not home for extended periods. I also believe that hives less intensively managed tend to do better—if they get treatments for mites at the right times of year and with the right treatments. My hives that I have failed to treat on schedule, based on facts regarding mite counts, in my locality have all failed and I ensure that I can inspect my colonies at certain key points in the year or arrange for others to do so. Hives that don’t get split, managed for swarms, at the right time of year do their own thing and that may not be good for the local bee population.
    I never said I do not check on the hives. In fact I watch the entrances to make sure they are bringing in pollen every week. I highly doubt that I had a hive die and swarm move in in a weeks time. Not saying it cant happen but doubtful.

  18. #77
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    May 2016
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    Spring Hill, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    I also never said I thought it was a good idea for the op to chance it being a long distance from home. I was stating what I have experienced with a more or less set and forget approach.

    I will continue to read the forum and learn from some, but I have decided I will no longer post any of my experiences here.

  19. #78
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    lake hopatcong nj
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by RTBBEE View Post
    You see if you do not post frequently It is trottet1 Opinion that you are a useless non contributor.
    Putting words in my mouth now?

    It's pretty low of you to reference and post 1 quote from me that took place in a totally different thread. I mean really low.

    That quote was a response to your comment (uncalled for in my opinion) from another thread that you failed to post.

    RT is refering to a thread called "how much honey"

    I had no problem with this convorsation there as it was your own thread that you derailed. I however, will not play along or feed the troll here out of respect to the op. As you say, good day Sir!
    Last edited by trottet1; 06-19-2019 at 03:43 PM.

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    My bees are currently in our mid-summer dearth and they are pissy. Hey, have you guys eaten today?

  21. #80
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Set It and Forget It?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunkool View Post
    In fact I watch the entrances to make sure they are bringing in pollen every week.
    thank you for clarifying that you had no scientific basis for your statement that 'efb bacteria, just like afb spores can remain dormant in hive for years'. in my opinion it's important to know what we know as well as know what we don't know.

    it is my sincere hope that neither you nor anybody else contributing here ever has an efb epidemic sweep through their yards like happened with me.

    having to destroy 300+ colonies and equipment would be much worse than dozen or so i had to.

    i am familiar with spring hill and have family living there. my understanding is that there are many large commercial migratory concerns operating out of florida and a healthy package bee industry as well. you may as well consider yourself vulnerable.

    regular inspections and being vigilant for robbing by all concerned won't completely eliminate the risk of contamination from neighboring colonies, but the extent of damage done might be limited if problems are adequately contained in a timely manner.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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