Reverse queen splits - Page 3
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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    Now for those who want to take the words of some experts as gospel, there are others who will question this so called knowledge that is cast in stone, unfortunately I have always been one of those. However take a young man that has questioned this knowledge cast in stone for years and years only to find it was all a load of horse manure. The name Ramsey comes to mind.
    The word of many experts can be taken at face value, others not so much. If you default to disbelieving everything associated with "the establishment" you can easily handicap yourself. Stereotyping can be blinding.
    Frank

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  3. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Sawyer County,WI USA
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    347

    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    The word of many experts can be taken at face value, others not so much. If you default to disbelieving everything associated with "the establishment" you can easily handicap yourself. Stereotyping can be blinding.


  4. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
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    310

    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    The guy is trotting out the party-line - i.e. justifying the centre's activities/existence - you wouldn't expect such a person to look positively upon an example of natural behaviour, independent of human control, no more than you'd expect a turkey to vote for Christmas !
    I agree - give me a well nourished swarm cell every time.
    It's what bees do - whenever they're allowed to.
    LJ
    +1 I will take a well developed swarm cell as well. not sure where this Bee center person got his funding from, but queen breeders is a good bet

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lottsburg, Virginia USA
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    1,631

    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    It is not really about believing or not believing conventional wisdom but more of questioning some of this stuff that has come down over the years. It is by questioning and testing these beliefs that we learn and come to conclusions. As for this swarming subject, I have purchased breeder queens for traits like mite resistance and non swarming traits and yet they die from PMS if mites are not kept in check and they eventually try to swarm when the conditions for them are right. The only queens I have that have not swarmed are the ones with clipped wings, and they did not swarm cause they could not fly. Sometimes the rest of the hive swarmed and settled only to find that they did not have a queen with them and after a while all returned to the hive.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
    Posts
    310

    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    It is not really about believing or not believing conventional wisdom but more of questioning some of this stuff that has come down over the years. It is by questioning and testing these beliefs that we learn and come to conclusions. As for this swarming subject, I have purchased breeder queens for traits like mite resistance and non swarming traits and yet they die from PMS if mites are not kept in check and they eventually try to swarm when the conditions for them are right. The only queens I have that have not swarmed are the ones with clipped wings, and they did not swarm cause they could not fly. Sometimes the rest of the hive swarmed and settled only to find that they did not have a queen with them and after a while all returned to the hive.
    If one looks back for 1000 years, which is one of the "tactics" I use to better understand. Swarming is how bees reproduce, so with out "swarming" traits bees would eventually dwindle to nothing. Ok so I can understand the some sub species maybe do swarm more often, this could be because there were less likely to succeed or had more predators or some other pre disposition. also a swarm made queen is the bees attempt to make a new queen to replace the one they have as the 1 they have is leaving with the swarm. they have successfully done this for a very long time... I realize Homo Sapiens have got fairly good at making queens however I think the bees are fine at it as well. To say a swarm queen is likely to produce swarmy queens is not really understanding, how bees operate. the reason 10 beekeepers have 13 answers for any given question , Is IMO due to lack of humans understanding what, how, when, where of bees. If 100% understanding were to be present, then we would all agree. So some of this several answers thing is Ignorance. "Where" A major item is locality, bees in Canada will behave very different from bees in Florida. And you have gradients all the way in between. Some areas experience Derth some do not, some have winters to tend with some do not. I have hived several swarms, in almost every case these hives do better than the packages I hived at the same site. As well these queens were as good as any I have purchased. So any new Beekeepers can do fine with swarms, they are a cost effective way to start/play with bees. Some folks have only caught swarms and split them for their bees , IE they never purchased bees. so in some areas catching swarms is a viable way to do beekeeping. with that said in Alaska, one may look a long time for a swarm. So the words never and always, often do not pertain to beekeeping. Also keep in mind the lens we have is for our locale, it often will not be the same as everyone else lens.
    Happy learning.
    GG

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England, UK
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    1,139

    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    I don't know if it would help or hinder - but it could be useful to look at honeybee behaviour in two distinctly separate ways: hard and soft.

    What I would call 'hard' behaviours are examples like the collecting of pollen and nectar, and of building comb - and the myriad behaviours which are associated with them. These are not random behaviours, but very purposeful indeed, and are - for all intents and purposes - 'hard-wired' into the honeybee's DNA. There's nowhere else for these instructions to be held and passed on from one generation to the next, as we know that bees do not learn these skills from one another. Swarming is but another example of such 'hard-wired' behaviour.

    But we can select to avoid certain behaviours such as over-defensiveness and following, and perhaps select to optimise grooming and other hygienic traits - these are short-term behaviour changes which I would call 'soft', meaning that such changes are only temporary, and require constant human reinforcement if they are to persist. Failure to do this will cause the bee to revert to it's wild-type 'hard-wired' behaviour - whatever that happens to be for that particular sub-type.
    I would say that it may well be possible to breed a bee in which swarming only takes place as a last resort - but that such breeding would of necessity be 'soft': such that if the breeding program for this was not maintained, then the bee would revert to it's default 'hard-wired' natural swarming behaviour.

    At the risk of stating the obvious, the difference between hard and soft is that of time: natural behaviours have taken millions of years to have become 'hard-wired' into the honeybee's DNA, and it would therefore presumably take many thousands of years to modify any of them in a significant or lasting way. Changes that we may be able to create within a few generations must therefore always be considered 'soft' and thus transitory - unless we are prepared to invest monumental efforts in the pushing of water uphill - and then trying to keep it there ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    1,589

    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    It is not really about believing or not believing conventional wisdom but more of questioning some of this stuff that has come down over the years.
    It's quite possible to do so in a civil manner thru construction conversation. As you so well demonstrate in this thread, name calling and hand waving has taken precedence over constructive conversation for the most part these days. It's unproductive and devalues the conversation to the point there is little value left.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Jonesborough TN USA
    Posts
    21

    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    Thank you for the link to the discussion about Snelgrove boards. Is this the technique where you split the queen out and place her on top of the hive over a double screen board, letting the bottom hive raise a new Queen, and then putting the honey suppers below the double screen, and then toggling the pegs every 2 weeks so as to trick the bees into moving into the bottom box? Do you have to keep the old queen split off the original hive for 16 days until a new Queen has been raised? Will the bottom hive will raise a new queen if the old queen is placed above the hive right away. I remember being told that in this technique you split the old queen off with only capped brood? What is the reason for that? It appears that the book link that you mentioned is no longer active but I did see that the book can be purchased on Amazon.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
    Posts
    310

    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    Quote Originally Posted by Alram View Post
    So how do you keep your Apiary from growing exponentially? I came thru the winter with 17 hives and now thru splits and swarm cells and swarms I have around 40 which is too much for me to manage.
    Pick your 5 worst Queens and plot thier demise. add the brood and bees to weaker hives with good queens , not you have 35.
    Sell some, either full hive or NUC.

  11. #50
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    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Reverse queen splits

    Quote Originally Posted by Alram View Post
    Thank you for the link to the discussion about Snelgrove boards. It appears that the book link that you mentioned is no longer active but I did see that the book can be purchased on Amazon.
    Alram; you have asked questions that are well explained in Snelgroves booklet. It is out of print but available used if you must have the copy in your hands. It is available in PDF. format

    http://krishikosh.egranth.ac.in/bits...AU%2033372.pdf

    It not only tells you the moves to make but explains the reasoning behind it. Trying to memorize the moves without understanding why will make your head ache! If you take three or four hours to get the idea firmly in your head the door manipulations become easy.
    Frank

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