Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk also worked on an army project to train honey bees to detect explosives, and if I remember correctly was part of the team investigating the original CCD epidemic.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    I wonder what chance artificial intelligence has when there is so little natural intelligence about. There was no peer reviewed papers on the device I advertised, yet beekeepers came out and invested their money and trusted that I would deliver as promised at a much higher cost than $20. Now I do not even own a smart phone and do not intend to purchase one either yet I an quite happy to donate $20 to the Professors research just to see if something can come out of it beneficial or not, just as a small donation to someone in Grass Valley does not mean I have to gain something from the donation or that he is a snake oil salesman taking advantage of so many of us addle headed beekeepers. If you are curious and wish to see where this will go to get involved, if you are not refrain from maligning the messenger and let us poor suckers do what we think is in our interest.
    I think it is because similar devices are known to be useful. When you first started building your device you were open and honest with your intentions. You didn't smother it with passive language and hyperbole. Your sales pitch was not your first post nor did it come with claimed credentials of researchers with thirty years of worldwide experience. You didn't ask for money up front to develop your product and you knew if your product did not perform up to expectations that fact would be quickly exposed.
    Extraordinary claims need to backed up, even when asking for small amounts of money. They have exceeded their goals, so I guess the thing will be released soon.
    I guess this is just another case of generational friction.


    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    While I do not wish to "out" the OP with his true identity, he did not seem to want too much anonymity with his choice of username. Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk and Dr. David Firth, the developers of the beeguru app, recently appeared on Kim Flottum's "Beekeeping Today" podcast to discuss their research and development of this app. One of these gentlemen founded and developed the U of Montana Master Beekeepers course (I can't remember which one).

    I would encourage anyone, including the doubters, to listen to this podcast. I am not telling you that it will erase all doubt. But I did leave with the feeling that these were serious researchers taking a good stab at this new technology. How effective will it be? They gave some anecdotal examples and I am interested. Like everything else though, the proof for me will only come when it is in my beeyards, successfully diagnosing hives.

    I know beekeepers get flooded with useless gimmicks and miracle devices or medicine every year that turns out to be garbage. It doesn't help that our beekeeping suppliers seem all too willing to sell whatever unproven crap comes through. But innovations will ultimately come and I want to keep my mind open to it. Don't shoot this down so quickly.
    I learned about this on the Beekeeping Today podcast as well, and found it well presented. No wild claims beyond the fact that they believe the data they have is real and repeatable. Very open about the challenges and goals going forward. It wasn't until after I listened and did some more reading about the effort and the people involved that I made a modest donation to the effort.

    Bromenshenk was president of WAS -Western Apiculture Society.

    Skepticism is a good thing. But are we really a community that's going to immediately accuse others of running a scam, without any information?

  5. #64

    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Hello all! I see that there has been some "spirited discussion" about the Bee Health Guru on this forum and have really appreciated reading ALL the comments.

    To those of you who have chosen to support our project, thank you very much indeed!! There is just one week left for the Kickstarter, and we'd appreciate you sharing it with your friends and fellow beekeepers so they too can have an early-release version of the Bee Health Guru smartphone app.

    Many of the comments seem to focus on our background, all of which is openly available in the link I posted when I started this thread at the Bee Health Guru Kickstarter page (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...for-beekeepers).

    The Bee Health Guru has been featured in a number of places (I appreciate those of you who posted links to these, and commented on their availability):

    Bee Culture Magazine: https://www.beeculture.com/catch-the...heir-ailments/

    Beekeeping Today podcast from Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk and Dr. David Firth, two of the Bee Health Guru team: http://beekeepingtodaypodcast.com/dr-jerry-bromenshenkdr-david-firth-bee-health-guru-uom-master-beekeeper-program-026?fbclid=IwAR1O3yQ6wwUIJdmGCgbI5uFBzrO41BOAl2QDd 0nTjBi7xONCTMwY8OHLFkI

    The Economist had an article too, available here: https://www.economist.com/science-an...oblems-of-bees

    A few have focused on how Artificial Intelligence is a part of the Bee Health Guru. I understand the skepticism, but our lead programmer for the project has been working with bees and AI for over 20 years. His Masters thesis in 1998 in Computer Science is the first in the world, we believe, to apply early AI to the sounds of bees: https://scholarworks.umt.edu/etd/6718/

    I also see a few calls for data, our research, and for us to show what we've found in detail. I think DaisyNJ summed up perfectly why I won't be sharing this information here when he/she says "I ain't giving a penny to such folks even if they got degrees printed on a mile long paper."

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Ok, so because OP did not respond with names or other details, I spent some time looking into this. Its unfortunate that I have to get the "information" from a news paper, but here it is.

    https://www.missoulacurrent.com/busi...ve-health-app/

    1. The app was developed by Bromenshenk, Robert Seccomb, Colin Henderson and David Firth.

    2. When smartphones had the processing power to run the app in 2018, the team was able to further develop it. (????????)

    3. “This will improve bee health,” Bromenshenk said. “This is the CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) for bees in your own hand, in your own phone.”

    4. “(Bees in New Zealand) sound different from ours and we need to have a New Zealand version of it because it’s like human accents,” Bromenshenk said. “You’ve got to essentially adjust them. It’s easily adjustable if you get the sampling.” (??????????)

    5. Beekeepers can use the app commercially, with the pro version, which charges a fee based on the size of the operation. That version allows the app’s bee experts to analyze surveys and provide quick and accurate feedback on the health of the beekeeper’s bees.

    On further looking, I could find one article alluding to this back in April 2018. Its very well possible I missed any published stats or research.
    https://dzone.com/articles/using-ai-...the-bees-needs

    This dzone link (and others that reference it) and beeculture write up effectively stats - "The initial release of the app will be able to detect seven disorders, including hive beetle, parasitic mites, and the foulbrood bacterial infection — although as uptake grows, the researchers hope to build upon data shared by their users to detect other problems. " .

    Another "Review" published in 2015 briefly references Apidictor - https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6374/5/4/678/htm

    I continue to look but other than news/online references above, I could not find any data, references to any tests, validation methods, anything. But I could be totally wrong and missed published data. But then again, if it doesnt work in New Jersey, we may need a "New Jersey" version of the app that understands New Jersey bees accent.
    Last edited by DaisyNJ; 05-22-2019 at 09:18 AM. Reason: Updated further articles found online

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaProf View Post
    Hello all! I see that there has been some "spirited discussion" about the Bee Health Guru on this forum and have really appreciated reading ALL the comments.

    .........

    I also see a few calls for data, our research, and for us to show what we've found in detail. I think DaisyNJ summed up perfectly why I won't be sharing this information here when he/she says "I ain't giving a penny to such folks even if they got degrees printed on a mile long paper."
    I am glad you finally found a "reason" why you wont share research data. Speaks volumes. Good luck.

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Back when varroa first killed off massive amounts of bees in the USA, didn't we import bees from Australia to replace them? How long did it take these bees to lose their "accents"? One generation only? I guess one would first have to know what causes this unique accent, beating of or speed of the wings? The accents of people from NZ sound the same to me as people from Australia, so does this mean the bees would also share the same traits? So many questions.
    If I am understanding this, does it also follow that each race of bees would also have different sounds? We have Italians, Russians, Buckfast and so on. I wonder how they lose their accents so quickly in a new geographic location. If they don't would the translation of the sound coming from the hive become distorted?

    I hope the sun comes out here, soon.

    Alex
    Ten years of Beekeeping before varroa. Started again spring of 2014.

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    I work for a manufacturer. Our environment is noisy. I tried several apps on my smart phone to read the sound pressure levels at various points within the factory. The results from testing at any one specific location varied greatly with even the slightest tilt of the phone one way or the other. Because I couldn't reproduce the results with any consistency it pretty much invalidated my tests. It is a curiosity to me how various smart phones, some with the microphone on the side, or the bottom, or even on top - not to mention with a wide range of frequency responses - will be able to resolve the sounds into a meaningful diagnoses. I would also think that an enclosed hive is a kind of anechoic chamber. All that honeycomb, and the frames themselves, act as baffles such as found inside a muffler. As kaizen pointed out, doesn't this change the natural resonance of the sounds the bees generate? Won't 2 deeps create a different response than 2 supers topped by 3 honey laden mediums? I also wonder what critical mass of bees is necessary to effect a good result. I would be fascinated to know how they overcame these obstacles.
    7 years; 3 colonies.

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Naysayers can squawk as much as they wish and not add anything substantial to this debate, whereas trying the thing out will move you to a position where where some knowledge will be gained even if it is that the system is worthless, on the other hand it could move beekeeping in directions we have not even considered. You cant know unless someone tries it out in many different areas . Think positive, its easy for me as I am practically mite free.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Here is the constructive feedback:

    1. Update the kickstarter page and website with FULL names of all involved with the product.
    1.1 Get rid of the cheesy video. Make a "beekeeper" video where you use app (clear view), record what app says, do alcohol wash, compare results.
    2. Update the website with links to actual research done (historical or otherwise) in the area of honey bee sounds and efforts to map to conditions / diseases.
    3. Update the website with results of the information gathered and how it was verified. It could be as simple as (sample):
    Test-MiteLevels
    * App Beta version x.y was tested on 05/01/2019 against 1000 colonies in Montana such and such location.
    * App identified 100 colonies as level 1, 200 colonies as level 2, 400 colonies as Level 3 infestation. Here is the mapping of levels to % infestation.
    * Mr. State Inspector then performed alcohol tests against all 1000 colonies and documented varroa infestation rates.
    * The collected data from alcohol wash was compared against the app results.
    * Mr. State Inspector and team documented results. Here are the graphs of 'results'.
    * App identified Level 1 with 50% accuracy, Level 2 with 70% accuracy and Level 3 with 0% accuracy.
    * Mr. State Inspector test results were fed back to app as AI training set and tests were repeated. App improved identification by X%.
    Test-AFB Level:...........
    4. IF #3 (Field Tests) were NOT done and this effort is looking to gather information, THEN CLEARLY STATE YOU DO NOT HAVE DATA to publish FOR #2 ABOVE.
    5. Update the website with the US Parent # and details.

    NONE of the above reveals any "secret sauce". Claiming so is at another level of ignorance that I dont know how to respond to. Its mind boggling why someone with such great past credentials even claim so.

    As it stands now this pitch sounds like bunch of rookies running around and trying to do "Guru" thing.

    Take the feedback for what its worth, probably nothing for the folks who dont like anyone questioning.
    Last edited by DaisyNJ; 05-22-2019 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Beerz feedback on patent.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    Here is the constructive feedback:
    I would also like to see their patent.
    7 years; 3 colonies.

  13. #72
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    Here is the constructive feedback:
    I would also like to see their patent.
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070224914

  14. #73
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    Default

    The DoD has been working with this for years it appears. In my mind that gives it credibility.

    Maybe the point of this app is to use the beeks in the US as monitoring stations for any potential hazards like anthrax, radioactivity, sarin, ricin whatever. Government monitors data collected by your phone but not shown to you. The app would have to work for disease identification etc so beekeepers would continue to use it. Lol enough with the conspiracy daydreams.

    This makes alot more sense and seems way more useful to me than a flowhive. I hope it works. Disease identification, swarming intentions, bothered by night time pests, starving, queenless etc, who knows what it could potentially tell a beek?

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Thank you!. Its beyond me why OP could not post this. The patent itself does not reveal any secret sauce, so the sauce is safe.
    Now we wait for the field test results to be published. Field Test results does not contain secret sauce either, so the sauce should be safe.

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by mcon672 View Post
    The DoD has been working with this for years it appears. In my mind that gives it credibility.

    Maybe the point of this app is to use the beeks in the US as monitoring stations for any potential hazards like anthrax, radioactivity, sarin, ricin whatever. Government monitors data collected by your phone but not shown to you. The app would have to work for disease identification etc so beekeepers would continue to use it. Lol enough with the conspiracy daydreams.

    This makes alot more sense and seems way more useful to me than a flowhive. I hope it works. Disease identification, swarming intentions, bothered by night time pests, starving, queenless etc, who knows what it could potentially tell a beek?
    Now you got me worried...LOL

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    ok...what's the secret handshake?
    and what's with sexual harassment comment about women...shame
    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    I must say I never realized there were so many old woman on beesource all complaining get a life.
    DavidZ

  18. #77
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mcon672 View Post
    The DoD has been working with this for years it appears. In my mind that gives it credibility.

    Maybe the point of this app is to use the beeks in the US as monitoring stations for any potential hazards like anthrax, radioactivity, sarin, ricin whatever. Government monitors data collected by your phone but not shown to you. The app would have to work for disease identification etc so beekeepers would continue to use it. Lol enough with the conspiracy daydreams.

    This makes alot more sense and seems way more useful to me than a flowhive. I hope it works. Disease identification, swarming intentions, bothered by night time pests, starving, queenless etc, who knows what it could potentially tell a beek?
    Now you got me worried...LOL
    Meh, I'm ok with that if that's how it is. We get a useful tool and help out, win win. After reading the whole patent I actually feel pretty good about this,I was skeptical at first. The real value seems to be in environmental monitoring especially if every app users phone reported to the EPA or whoever. Would be really nice if the data collected was made public in real time or very close to it. We have been over run with oil and gas wells around here in the last ten years. Would be nice to see what they are releasing in the air.

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by Apis Natural View Post
    ok...what's the secret handshake?
    and what's with sexual harassment comment about women...shame
    Its posts like that one johno made that gives insight into personality.

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    I just went back and re-read this thread from page one. I can't quite figure out how the bitterness and hostility got inserted into a thread about something as innocuous as a cell phone app that may or may not help beekeepers.

  21. #80
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    I just went back and re-read this thread from page one. I can't quite figure out how the bitterness and hostility got inserted into a thread about something as innocuous as a cell phone app that may or may not help beekeepers.
    Post #1, #6 and #7, OP makes claim that "the app WILL tell in 30 seconds". Kickstarter page says "After listening to your bees, the Bee Health Guru will tell you within seconds what, if anything, is wrong with your bees. This hive has foul brood, which is particularly difficult for new beekeepers to identify.", and accompanies with a nice screenshot of a graphic.

    With such claims made, some of us asked for field test results. The response was due to "secret sauce", the 'results' could not be published. And then some folks thought this was all about how cheap "old women" were for questioning validity of claims for $20.

    And sh*t just rolled down from there.

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