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  1. #161
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    Daisy while you are searching for information perhaps you will come across something that explains why bees hum, buzz or make any sound at all, for until just recently the opinion of experts was that bees had no olfactory senses, so why make a noise at all. I would like more answers to some of the many unresolved bee mysteries but we will never know unless someone tries to find these answers. Daisy I am also not sure what you are objecting to, is it that you believe the research being carried out can never give a positive result or are you objecting to the method the team has followed to get further financing and to involve as many beekeepers as possible to provide raw data from their own hives.
    I am objecting to neither of the topics you quoted above. However, I am requesting information, research, anecdotical evidence of the SPECIFIC CLAIMS already made by OP and the team. For example, the app claims it can tell you 5 things from the sounds of bees RIGHT NOW. Foul Brood is a serious business and the team is making claims that they can identify foul brood from the sounds bees make, just by listening from the entrance. They quoted ONE personal experience of identifying foul brood. All other claims are piggy backed on the unrelated research from bees associating smells to food.

    On a related matter, can you quote where you read about "until just recently the opinion of experts was that bees had no olfactory senses". ? I am curious of that history as well.


    People with legs can walk. Does not automatically mean there will ever be a breakthrough that makes people literally walk to the moon. Sure there will be virtual walks to the moon, flying to the moon etc. But claiming I can make people literally walk to the moon NOW demands I show proof NOW.

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  3. #162
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    While I am not participating in any arguments one way or the other.
    Today I put 4 virgin queens in cages into a queenless hive to keep them while I arranged for mating hives.
    They immediately started piping as if they were having a conversation, this is the first time I have heard a bee reply to another one.

  4. #163
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    While I am not participating in any arguments one way or the other.
    Today I put 4 virgin queens in cages into a queenless hive to keep them while I arranged for mating hives.
    They immediately started piping as if they were having a conversation, this is the first time I have heard a bee reply to another one.
    Thats a well known observation among beekeepers. Here are the references to work of Charles Butler from 1600s of the observations. https://web.archive.org/web/20070629...ir/piping.html

    I observed during my second year of beekeeping that a prolonged (more than a day or two) piping is indication of after swarms.

  5. #164
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    I see a lot of "wouldn't it be nice if", enthusiasm in this thread and I agree with that sentiment. Problems associated with wishful thinking in general, though, often lead us into avoiding action that would address the root issues.

    I think that DaisyNJ has drawn attention to areas where I also felt the promoters could have been a bit more generous with their info. I call it a healthy skepticism but others will insist it is negativity.

    If the proposal is so weak in substance that DaisyNJ's attention gives it the death knell, well........ I dont think it deserves ad hominen attack anyway.
    Frank

  6. #165
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    Daisy while you are searching for information perhaps you will come across something that explains why bees hum, buzz or make any sound at all, for until just recently the opinion of experts was that bees had no olfactory senses, so why make a noise at all. I would like more answers to some of the many unresolved bee mysteries but we will never know unless someone tries to find these answers.
    Johno - is that a typo - did you mean 'auditory' ? Olfactory refers to smell, not sound - smell of course being the bees' principal sense which I believe has been recognised for some considerable time.
    LJ

    BTW - generally speaking - some sounds could always be a 'by-product' of an activity, rather than a mode of communication requiring a sense organ for that purpose.
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  7. #166
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    <<Thats a well known observation among beekeepers. Here are the references to work of Charles Butler from 1600s of the observations. https://web.archive.org/web/20070629...ir/piping.html

    I observed during my second year of beekeeping that a prolonged (more than a day or two) piping is indication of after swarms. >>

    On many occasions I have heard piping, but usually from within the cell or on a frame, but never when caged, rightly or wrong I was always told that bees communicate through vibration transmitted by the comb, these Queens were not on comb

  8. #167
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Yep soory about that, I meant aural senses in other words many claimed that bees did not have a means to identify sound. One of the examples is tanging cant work cause bees cant hear the sound as they do not have ears.

  9. #168
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Little bit of drift here but since we are talking about bees communicating by sound too, can someone tell me what the hairs on the bees eyes do? Seems like they could act the same as the cilia of the inner ear and turn sound waves into something the bees recognize. My apologies if this is akin to an already well known fact that I am simply unaware of.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  10. #169
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    The latest I have read is that there is something in the bees antennae that could possibly detect sound. As to the hair on a bees body? Nasa sent some bees up in a shuttle and they wanted to see how they would fly in a weightless state. They did not fly and some professor in Wales was contacted to ask why the bees would not fly, and his reply was that the hairs on a bees body through gravity allowed the bees to orient the correct way up so without the gravity they were totally confused and would not fly. I never saw any papers on this, I just happened to listen to a lecture from this professor.

  11. #170
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    That is pretty interesting, thanks for sharing. I am specifically thinking about those weird looking hairs that protrude from the eyes, another sensory organ. Here is where I am going with this, and I think the app, with auditory data from thousands of hives, may bear fruit. Ever notice how a guard bee will attack a bee trying to gain entry to the hive even while that bee is still several inches away and there is heavy traffic? If it were strictly olfactory based, I don't see how they could pinpoint a particular bee with such accuracy. What if it is based on frequency. Imagine that each hive has a unique frequency that the bees can detect. Bees in the hive learn "their" sound the same way infants learn to speak by mimicking their parents. A bee from another hive does not sound the same and is repelled. Suppose the bee's ability to discriminate frequency is higly acute, as is their sense of smell, and they can distinquish down to a few cycles per second. To us it all sounds the same. Could help to explain the different accents the researchers have noted as well. Perhaps what we refer to as altruistic suicide is a diseased bee's inability to resonate at it's home hive frequency and it is simply not allowed back in the hive? If we include sound in our understanding of bee behavior, it opens the door to an entirely new way of thinking. Of course, I might have a lot in common with the proverbial Christmas turkey.

  12. #171
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    <<Thats a well known observation among beekeepers. Here are the references to work of Charles Butler from 1600s of the observations. https://web.archive.org/web/20070629...ir/piping.html

    I observed during my second year of beekeeping that a prolonged (more than a day or two) piping is indication of after swarms. >>

    On many occasions I have heard piping, but usually from within the cell or on a frame, but never when caged, rightly or wrong I was always told that bees communicate through vibration transmitted by the comb, these Queens were not on comb
    Oh they will pipe without being on comb, when banked or otherwise nearby other queens. My theory is either they can smell or one randomly starts screaming and others follow through.

    During swarming season, I walk in the night by most strong hives and put my ear next to the boxes. When there is more than one virgin queens in there, you will hear two distinct sounds one from the what appears to be a free walking queen and another from a queen still held in cell. If that pairing sound continues for more than a day, I open up hive and often found the queens held in "captivity". Often those queens just emerge out of cells within few minutes of opening the frames. Same thing happened again this weekend. One of the outyard hives swarmed twice and I opened up hive. Lo and behold, three more cells were held captive. Within 5 minutes of opening hives, the queens emerged while they were set next to hive. Its pretty amazing to experience it.

    But I highly doubt they were "talking" or coordinating. And I also doubt they do this different across geographic regions. There is a recent Honey Show talk on swarming and one of the causes discussed is "density". So its possible the queens are doing what they are wired to do - pipe and go destroy competition. But in a very dense colonies it takes time and colony decides to swarm multiple times, each with a virgin queen that would emerge subsequently.

  13. #172
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    That is pretty interesting, thanks for sharing. I am specifically thinking about those weird looking hairs that protrude from the eyes, another sensory organ. Here is where I am going with this, and I think the app, with auditory data from thousands of hives, may bear fruit. Ever notice how a guard bee will attack a bee trying to gain entry to the hive even while that bee is still several inches away and there is heavy traffic? If it were strictly olfactory based, I don't see how they could pinpoint a particular bee with such accuracy. What if it is based on frequency. Imagine that each hive has a unique frequency that the bees can detect. Bees in the hive learn "their" sound the same way infants learn to speak by mimicking their parents. A bee from another hive does not sound the same and is repelled. Suppose the bee's ability to discriminate frequency is higly acute, as is their sense of smell, and they can distinquish down to a few cycles per second. To us it all sounds the same. Could help to explain the different accents the researchers have noted as well. Perhaps what we refer to as altruistic suicide is a diseased bee's inability to resonate at it's home hive frequency and it is simply not allowed back in the hive? If we include sound in our understanding of bee behavior, it opens the door to an entirely new way of thinking. Of course, I might have a lot in common with the proverbial Christmas turkey.
    I highly doubt that each hive have a "different frequency" or dialect. In my limited experimentation the guard bees pay attention to the way robbers approach hive (and possibly how they smell). The robbers hover around as they know they are robbing. Its like an intruder trying to enter a building but stumbling along since he was not a regular visitor and doesnt know floor plan. Its easy to run the experiment. I often place a new nuc in the place of the nuc I just sold, to capture the foragers. The incoming forgers approach the entrance with high confidence and seldom encounter any resistance at the entrance. On the other hand, observe robber bees in nectar dearth and you will see they approach and hover hesitantly and guards can sense it.

    But, related but unrelated, I believe smell plays much larger role than sound. Deceased hives, queenless hives, weak hives are prone to attract SHB which can smell things far far away (or so I read). Robbers are prone to attack in similar fashion.

    Just my 2 cents on the topic.

  14. #173

    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    Maybe we are building the future today as it has been done so many times in the past.

    If the op is reading and if you need help with the Iberian peninsula bees accent I am available to help.
    Thank you Eduardo. Yes, we would love to have your help and input on the Bee Health Guru app. If you can pledge to the Kickstarter campaign we can get a pre-release version in to your hands. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...for-beekeepers

  15. #174

    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Hello all. The Bee Health Guru has just 48 hours before the Kickstarter is complete along with the opportunity to get a pre-release version of the app. We currently have over 600 supporters! The Kickstarter is at: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...for-beekeepers

    We have some very good coverage in the two major bee journals, Bee Culture Magazine and American Bee Journal.

    Bee Culture magazine supports the Bee Health Guru, and has created the following: "to challenge, and later be nationally recognized, each and every bee supply company to match Bee Culture’s $250 pledge." You can read more here:

    https://www.beeculture.com/catch-the...5e2f-256245873

  16. #175
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by johno View Post
    The latest I have read is that there is something in the bees antennae that could possibly detect sound.
    Honey bees antenna has a Johnston's Organ located somewhere around the "elbow" or "bend" (I am sure there is a scientific term). I don't think there is 100% consensus on exactly what the Johnston's Organ does, but there is a lot of thought that it is a receptor of sound and/or movement. There are also some writings about the Johnston's organ being able to detect electric charge.

  17. #176
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Are there phone processing minimum requirements posted anywhere? I am interested, but don't know if my phone will support the app.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  18. #177
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaProf View Post
    Hello all. The Bee Health Guru has just 48 hours before the Kickstarter is complete along with the opportunity to get a pre-release version of the app. We currently have over 600 supporters! The Kickstarter is at: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...for-beekeepers

    We have some very good coverage in the two major bee journals, Bee Culture Magazine and American Bee Journal.

    Bee Culture magazine supports the Bee Health Guru, and has created the following: "to challenge, and later be nationally recognized, each and every bee supply company to match Bee Culture’s $250 pledge." You can read more here:

    https://www.beeculture.com/catch-the...5e2f-256245873
    I just gave $24 which gives them exactly double their goal. I wonder if I get a special prize?

  19. #178
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    You do. You get to be one of the first 1000 people to get the beta version of the app.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  20. #179
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    Default

    I think if the Bee Health Guru dropped the Guru part which at least in my opinion has a junk science connotation. And if they explained that they have no real data yet but are hopeful with beekeeper support to develop this app they may have had more support. Part of their challenge will be to confirm the health status of the hives listened to, because most data is likely to be from new beekeepers that don’t know how to diagnose hives, that’s why they bought the app

  21. #180
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    Default Re: Smartphone app that listens to bees to tell you what health issues they have

    Quote Originally Posted by DaisyNJ View Post
    I am objecting to neither of the topics you quoted above. However, I am requesting information, research, anecdotical evidence of the SPECIFIC CLAIMS already made by OP and the team. For example, the app claims it can tell you 5 things from the sounds of bees RIGHT NOW. Foul Brood is a serious business and the team is making claims that they can identify foul brood from the sounds bees make, just by listening from the entrance. They quoted ONE personal experience of identifying foul brood. All other claims are piggy backed on the unrelated research from bees associating smells to food.

    On a related matter, can you quote where you read about "until just recently the opinion of experts was that bees had no olfactory senses". ? I am curious of that history as well.


    People with legs can walk. Does not automatically mean there will ever be a breakthrough that makes people literally walk to the moon. Sure there will be virtual walks to the moon, flying to the moon etc. But claiming I can make people literally walk to the moon NOW demands I show proof NOW.
    Yes Daisy, and no one has brought up deceptive bees, you know the type, they would see you coming and start making "everythings ok" sounds, just because they didn't want to be bothered that day.

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