Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem) - Page 2
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 52
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Cerana and Millifera do not really cross-breed.
    Since they have overlapped in Russian Far East, they had lots of time and chances to cross-breed.
    Well, no viable off-spring was found so far.
    I have supporting documentation but will not bother looking for it now.

    All in all, the "Cerana solution" will be like the "fox solution" when foxes were brought to control the previously imported rabbits to Australia.
    How it all ended we all know.
    For sure we should know these facts before attempting more of the same again - it does not work and is harmful.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    Then why would you want to import an inferior bee and all of its diseases and problems?
    If kept differently from the way beekeepers do now in the US, the Asian honey bee may not be much inferior at all to the European honey bees. As the Japanese man in this article (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/me...pis-cerana.pdf), just have four more A. cerana hives for every one A. mellifera hive to make the same amount honey, since the Japanese man said the Asian honey bees make one fourth the amount of honey that an A. mellifera hive can make. I would think that lifting smaller boxes from the smaller A. cerana hives would be a bonus actually!

  4. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Cerana was brought into the U.S. back in the early 1900's. Do some due diligence and find the records. They have numerous weaknesses that make them poor honey producers. They are ineffective pollinators on many of the temperate plant species we grow. They do have some interesting traits. It is highly likely that a cross-species hybrid will eventually be used to bring those traits over to our domestic honeybees.
    And may I ask what subspecies they brought in to the US to test? If you bring in African bees to the temperate parts of the US, would they thrive? I do not think they would. Or vice versa, bring the temperate European bees to the tropics, and those temperate bees do poorly. The same with bringing in a tropical or different climate A. cerana honey bee subspecies to our different climate in the US. It is good to know that we actually have tried the Asian honey bees here, thank you for telling me Fusion_power.
    Last edited by HaplozygousNut; 06-29-2019 at 06:50 PM.

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Cerana and Millifera do not really cross-breed.
    Since they have overlapped in Russian Far East, they had lots of time and chances to cross-breed.
    Well, no viable off-spring was found so far.
    I have supporting documentation but will not bother looking for it now.

    All in all, the "Cerana solution" will be like the "fox solution" when foxes were brought to control the previously imported rabbits to Australia.
    How it all ended we all know.
    For sure we should know these facts before attempting more of the same again - it does not work and is harmful.
    That is true from what I read about cross breeding A. mellilfera and A. cerana. I read that A. cerana and A. mellifera were artificially inseminated without success. Some people even guessed that the Russian bees that were brought in were hybrids of A. cerana and A. mellifera, because Russian bees were brought in from the area where A. cerana and A. mellifera both live in the Russian Far East.

    But the gene editing may be able to introduce genes from A. cerana to A. melllifera...

    Both foxes and rabbits were bad for Australia, rabbits more so, correct? The Myxomysoma virus was great from what I read on Wikipedia on controlling the European rabbits in Australia. They had to get a weakened form of the virus because the original strain/strains were too deadly to be able to spread well (the rabbit would die before it could spread the disease to other rabbits... lol)

    A. cerana and A. mellifera are very similar from what I can tell. If we already have A. mellifera introduced here into the New World how different would A. cerana be?

    One thing I can think of bad with introducing A. cerana, other than bringing in new pests for A. mellifera, would be that A. cerana may be very adaptable and suck up much of the nectar sources that bumble bees and other similar native insects would feed on, competing with our native species. Asian honey bees may be more adaptable than European honey bees, and so be worse than the A. mellifera introduction to similar species of bees and animals occupying the same niche in the habitat, out competing them to extinction.

    By introducing first the different Asian honey bee subspecies to an island or two, we can see how badly they affect the native bumble bees and other creatures that are native to the US.

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Covington County, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    1,509

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    If kept differently from the way beekeepers do now in the US, the Asian honey bee may not be much inferior at all to the European honey bees. As the Japanese man in this article (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/me...pis-cerana.pdf), just have four more A. cerana hives for every one A. mellifera hive to make the same amount honey, since the Japanese man said the Asian honey bees make one fourth the amount of honey that an A. mellifera hive can make. I would think that lifting smaller boxes from the smaller A. cerana hives would be a bonus actually!
    I think I am just missing something here. You have apis m and do not lose hives to varroa. Why would you want to manage 4X the colonies of apis c instead? They are 4X inferior to apis m.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    I think I am just missing something here. You have apis m and do not lose hives to varroa. Why would you want to manage 4X the colonies of apis c instead? They are 4X inferior to apis m.
    One good thing is that the A. cerana hives, being smaller, would be lighter than A. mellifera colonies, and so easier to move. And there are ways to manage bees without much actual management, just knowledge on when to split and when to super or nadir (what I like to do, because I want foundation-less hives).

    Asian honey bees are said to be hardy, pest resistant, and surviving where A. mellifera do poorly.
    Quote from this website (Economic impact section):
    http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/...pis_cerana.htm
    "Many beekeepers are transitioning to Apis mellifera management because the average Apis cerana colony produces less honey than does the average Apis mellifera colony. However, In many parts of Asia, Apis mellifera can survive only under intense care and protection offered by the beekeeper, while the vast majority of Apis cerana colonies still live wild and naturally in balance with a vast array of predators, pest, and parasites (e.g., hornets, sun bears, Varroa). One example of this is that Apis mellifera must be treated with pesticides for Varroa control, whereas Apis cerana is a natural host of Varroa and does not require beekeeper intervention. Therefore, Apis cerana colonies can be used to produce organic honey."

    These people succeed better with Asian honey bees than the European honey bees. So the people in the US may do better with the Asian honey bees than European honey bees. And the way beekeepers in the US keep bees with pesticides takes a lot of labor and money (applying the pesticides and paying for them). Having A. cerana would eliminate this problem because people don't believe it is needed, because the pests are native to that bee...

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    One good thing is that the A. cerana hives, being smaller, would be lighter than A. mellifera colonies, and so easier to move. And there are ways to manage bees without much actual management, just knowledge on when to split and when to super or nadir (what I like to do, because I want foundation-less hives).

    Asian honey bees are said to be hardy, pest resistant, and surviving where A. mellifera do poorly.
    Quote from this website (Economic impact section):
    http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/...pis_cerana.htm
    "Many beekeepers are transitioning to Apis mellifera management because the average Apis cerana colony produces less honey than does the average Apis mellifera colony. However, In many parts of Asia, Apis mellifera can survive only under intense care and protection offered by the beekeeper, while the vast majority of Apis cerana colonies still live wild and naturally in balance with a vast array of predators, pest, and parasites (e.g., hornets, sun bears, Varroa). One example of this is that Apis mellifera must be treated with pesticides for Varroa control, whereas Apis cerana is a natural host of Varroa and does not require beekeeper intervention. Therefore, Apis cerana colonies can be used to produce organic honey."

    These people succeed better with Asian honey bees than the European honey bees. So the people in the US may do better with the Asian honey bees than European honey bees. And the way beekeepers in the US keep bees with pesticides takes a lot of labor and money (applying the pesticides and paying for them). Having A. cerana would eliminate this problem because people don't believe it is needed, because the pests are native to that bee...
    Well, actually, on that website (http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/...pis_cerana.htm), it sounds like they are trying to raise European honey bees in the tropics of Southeast Asia. I'm guessing from the sun bears living down in Southeast Asia. They are just needing a different subspecies of A. mellifera. Beekeepers had the same problem in the tropics of South America, until they brought in the African honey bees. Southeast Asia has not brought in any African bees yet, have they? The people there could make a lot of money out of the productive African bees. It could help poor people make a living, no?

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Distinguishing between the Western (A. mellifera) and Asian (A. cerana) honey bees.
    http://m.blog.daum.net/kwonst011/12403287?tp_nil_a=1

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    2,574

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    The people who have dealt with the little bastards hate them. They are some mean bees, maybe not as bad as A. M. Scutellata crosses known as AHB or "killer bees", but meaner than A. M. Mellifera (European Black Bees - usually meaner than Italians). Beekeepers in Australia get together to hunt them down and kill them.

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Video of Asian honey bees in an apiary in Khabarovsk, Siberia:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2rcJpfzWo

    They are dark with stunning white bands. I think in the video he also showed a hive of A. mellifera next to the Asian bee hive.

  12. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    The people who have dealt with the little bastards hate them. They are some mean bees, maybe not as bad as A. M. Scutellata crosses known as AHB or "killer bees", but meaner than A. M. Mellifera (European Black Bees - usually meaner than Italians). Beekeepers in Australia get together to hunt them down and kill them.
    Hmm... that is different from what I have heard about Asian honey bees. You are the first I can remember saying that Asian honey bees are aggressive compared to A. mellifera. It might be that your Asian honey bees, now invasive in Australia, are a particularly aggressive type of Asian honey bee and your A. mellifera being particularly gentle strain. Like African bees being more aggressive than European bees. Though I have seen pictures of people going into African bee (Picture from Central America in a magazine.) hives without gloves... I believe the hybridization with Italian or other subspecies of bees with African bees was what really made them that aggressive. If I mix gene pools of queens I bought from breeders far away from here in North Carolina, I get "hot" hives the first generation.

    Here in this link :https://beejournal.ru/rodstvenniki-p...skovaya-pchela
    It says that their Asian honey bees are more gentle than their European honey bees. It also says that the Asian honey bees are very hardy in unfavorable conditions, and go out at -12 degrees celsius. That is hard to believe. Too cold! They'd freeze soon after getting out of the hive. It also says that the Asian honey bees in Kazansky district have hives 20 to 30 thousand individuals before winter. That is a lot.

  13. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    The people who have dealt with the little bastards hate them. They are some mean bees, maybe not as bad as A. M. Scutellata crosses known as AHB or "killer bees", but meaner than A. M. Mellifera (European Black Bees - usually meaner than Italians). Beekeepers in Australia get together to hunt them down and kill them.
    Not at all aggressive.
    It is the opposite - you are confusing something here.

    Few beeks in Russian Far East are trying to keep the Cerana (as experimentation) - not easy and not much payback either.
    The Cerana will abscond on you for any old reason - a significant practical problem.
    Here is a quick video for you:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2rcJpfzWo
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    ...... the Asian honey bees are very hardy in unfavorable conditions, and go out at -12 degrees celsius. That is hard to believe. Too cold! ...
    Sure, it can be -12C in shade (as properly measured) and at the same time the dark surfaces exposed to the Sun can be quite warm - a typical case in March, for example.
    Sun hitting the dark bees also keeps them warm.
    If bees need to quickly defecate in-and-out - they surely can and will do so.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  15. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Virgil, NY USA
    Posts
    179

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Hi everyone,
    I have spent time in the mountains of Nepal working with apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica. They average 2 KG of honey per year. Would bee the same here in the US. They are not resistant to varroa mites. Beekeepers there treat,during non swarmy years. Most years the colonies swarm multiple times, reducing the mite pressure.( see Tom Seeleys research-small colonies,swarmy). Part of the reason russian bees are somewhat resistant-very swarmy bees.
    Apis cerana is not the bee for us if you want to make a living, or even some honey for your family!
    besides being illegal. Our govt has better things to spend money on anyway.

    Nick
    gridleyhollow.com

  16. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by funwithbees View Post
    Hi everyone,
    I have spent time in the mountains of Nepal working with apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica. ........

    Nick
    gridleyhollow.com
    Let us be clear however - Cerana population in Nepal and Cerana population in Russian Far East - these are very different, distinct populations in very different geographical regions and, in fact, MAYBE different Cerana subspecies.
    Did anyone give a little think on that subject?

    Just the same as A. m. Mellifera and A. m. Ligurica are different subspecies with different traits hailing from different historical regions - well known and accepted fact.
    And so on....

    Think of that a minute.

    Regarding this:
    Part of the reason russian bees are somewhat resistant-very swarmy bees.
    Carnica bees then should be as resistant as those swarmy Russians.
    Hint, hint...
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  17. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    Video of Asian honey bees in an apiary in Khabarovsk, Siberia:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2rcJpfzWo

    They are dark with stunning white bands. I think in the video he also showed a hive of A. mellifera next to the Asian bee hive.
    Looks like I just re-posted a link to this exact video.

    Well, then here is a different video about Far Eastern Cerana - directly from Japan:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GWB4Deche0

    Not much defensiveness to speak of, on the video.
    No smoker in sight even.

    From the video author:
    This pile box type is for Apis Ceranae. They stock less honey than Apis Mellifera,so we can harvest honey once a year.
    I don't know about standard measures,but 250mm 250mm 150mm for one box is the best size from my experience.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Here is more Cerana to watch:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq6-...k&pbjreload=10

    How do I know?
    Because Cerana are ventilating IN, not ventilating OUT.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    2,998

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    as an aside, there is some documentation showing about 50 geographic races of Apis Cerana. I'm not looking it up, but if you choose to do some delving you can find it.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Crystal Water, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    1,211

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    The people who have dealt with the little bastards hate them. They are some mean bees, maybe not as bad as A. M. Scutellata crosses known as AHB or "killer bees", but meaner than A. M. Mellifera (European Black Bees - usually meaner than Italians). Beekeepers in Australia get together to hunt them down and kill them.
    I recently visited a number of beekeeprs in Vietnam. Outside hanoi they only keep Asian bees.

    From their reports honey production is not bad. They only use single hives - keeping the broodnest small to avoid swarming.

    The bees I was shown were very quiet bees - we opened many hives with nil protection.

    I would not like to see them spreading in Australia ( we had/have some up north)

    We do OK with our European bees.
    from the Bee House -http://ecologicalsolutions.com.au/bees/?page_id=8
    40 years - +/- 20 H - TF - Subtropical

  21. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Sure, it can be -12C in shade (as properly measured) and at the same time the dark surfaces exposed to the Sun can be quite warm - a typical case in March, for example.
    Sun hitting the dark bees also keeps them warm.
    If bees need to quickly defecate in-and-out - they surely can and will do so.
    Agreed. Going out for cleansing flights probably do not have to sustain themselves very long at that cold temperature since they are going right back into the hive afterwards. I think there must be someway that they exaggerated because -12C is impossibly low for honey bees to even come out without freezing within a couple minutes. How could they come up with that?

    Even though Asian honey bees are good at fighting off Vespa mandarinia I don't think that means they are aggressive to us. That is a very specific defensiveness, and is different from attacking bears or humans. Videos of Asian honeybees defending against hornets:
    https://blog.naver.com/vespa777/220335018393 (It is beautiful to watch how the Asian honeybees are alert and agile, retreating when they become alone. Our A. mellifera colonies attack no matter what, even when they are alone against a hornet. That is brave, but they get killed and feed the hornet...)

    https://blog.naver.com/vespa777/220487270693

    I believe what kilocharlie says about having aggressive A. cerana where he is in Australia. You may also have especially gentle A. mellifera that you are comparing to though, no? Those are good bees to have of course!
    Last edited by HaplozygousNut; 07-26-2019 at 05:36 PM.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •