Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem) - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by funwithbees View Post
    Hi everyone,
    I have spent time in the mountains of Nepal working with apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica. They average 2 KG of honey per year. Would bee the same here in the US. They are not resistant to varroa mites. Beekeepers there treat,during non swarmy years. Most years the colonies swarm multiple times, reducing the mite pressure.( see Tom Seeleys research-small colonies,swarmy). Part of the reason russian bees are somewhat resistant-very swarmy bees.
    Apis cerana is not the bee for us if you want to make a living, or even some honey for your family!
    besides being illegal. Our govt has better things to spend money on anyway.

    Nick
    gridleyhollow.com
    In this article it says that in China the Asian honey bees yield on average 15 to 20 KG of honey annually: https://www.apidologie.org/articles/..._1_ART0002.pdf

    Of course as I wrote before on this topic, A. mellifera are supposed to make more than the often quoted 50-60 lb of honey a year, so 15-20 KG is still much less than what European honey bees can make in a year, but just have 4 times the amount of hives to compensate. Now that I have thought about it, because Asian honey bees have a smaller foraging range, you would need more apiaries for Asian honey bees than European honey bees. That might be harder to deal with since you have to visit more apiaries. Maybe it could work out to raise the two species of honey bees in the same apiary to get different types of forage (Asian honeybees getting sparse forage while European honeybees getting the abundant foraging areas.). I think it would be easier to move smaller Asian honey bee colonies than very heavy European honey bee colonies.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Let us be clear however - Cerana population in Nepal and Cerana population in Russian Far East - these are very different, distinct populations in very different geographical regions and, in fact, MAYBE different Cerana subspecies.
    Did anyone give a little think on that subject?

    Just the same as A. m. Mellifera and A. m. Ligurica are different subspecies with different traits hailing from different historical regions - well known and accepted fact.
    And so on....

    Think of that a minute.

    Regarding this:

    Carnica bees then should be as resistant as those swarmy Russians.
    Hint, hint...
    Yes, I wondered also if the A. cerana cerana in the western side of the Himalayas were different from the ones on the eastern side, too.

    Actually the bees with Carniolan traits that I have worked with are very good for mite resistance and frugality through the summer here. What I think are Carniolans are the ones that propolize less and shrink colony size through dearth and build up rapidly in early spring/latewinter. I am not certain yet that the bees with those traits are Carniolan though. Could be Carpathian or Macedonian, too.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by funwithbees View Post
    Hi everyone,
    I have spent time in the mountains of Nepal working with apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica. They average 2 KG of honey per year. Would bee the same here in the US. They are not resistant to varroa mites. Beekeepers there treat,during non swarmy years. Most years the colonies swarm multiple times, reducing the mite pressure.( see Tom Seeleys research-small colonies,swarmy). Part of the reason russian bees are somewhat resistant-very swarmy bees.
    Apis cerana is not the bee for us if you want to make a living, or even some honey for your family!
    besides being illegal. Our govt has better things to spend money on anyway.

    Nick
    gridleyhollow.com
    It might be that it is the Russian-Korean haplotype varroa mite that is causing those Apis cerana in Nepal to die off. From what I read the Korean (Russian) haplotype of Varroa destructor are the most virulent Varroa destructor. It could be that those Apis cerana subspecies in Nepal are not resistant to the Korean haplotype Varroa mite like the Apis cerana koreana or Apis cerana ussuriensis (the Russian subspecies).
    https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/2294.pdf

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/me...pis-cerana.pdf

    Here is an interesting article about keeping Apis cerana in Japan. It says that Apis cerana make about a fourth of what European honey bees make in honey. That is better than I thought! He even says in the article that he doesn't see it as much of a disadvantage, but just have four times the number of Asian honey bee colonies than European honeybee colonies to compensate for the less honey production. Even with absconding it says it is not without reason that the Asian honey bees abscond. One disadvantage though is that the Asian honey bees he says go only a radius of 2 km, which is much less than the European honey bees.
    Getting 1/4 the honey production would bankrupt us.

    The honey is what finances the pet hoarding of bees. That sounds terrible.

    You know its funny that having bees and hoarding them is the one type of animal that you can hoard without risking having hundreds of them have the municipalities throw you out. :P

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by hagane View Post
    Getting 1/4 the honey production would bankrupt us.

    The honey is what finances the pet hoarding of bees. That sounds terrible.

    You know its funny that having bees and hoarding them is the one type of animal that you can hoard without risking having hundreds of them have the municipalities throw you out. :P
    Very funny hugane! Honey is what finances our pet bees! That is very true!

    Honey is not the only way of making money with honey bees, ...though 33-44 lbs of surplus honey annually from each Apis cerana hive is nothing to sniff at, especially if your Apis melllifera are dying from pests such as Varroa mites.

    From what I have read Apis cerana are very good for pollination of crops. They are said to forage at cooler temperatures, earlier in the morning, and later in the evening compared to the common European honey bees. Also, because Apis cerana have a smaller foraging range I have read that that might help with pollination, too, because Apis cerana won't go far away looking for a better foraging source than the nearby crops you want them to pollinate. Since the Asian honey bees are resistant to Varroa, they would need much less maintenance, but still give profit from almond pollination in the California Central Valley.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    I read through all of this thread and forgive me if I missed the discussion on it but it would seem to me that importation of Apis Cerana would present and extremely high risk........probably so high as to not make it NOT worth the risk of also importing the Tropilaelaps mite which would almost certainly be disastrous to say the least for the North American and South American beekeeping industry.

  8. #47
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Live Oak View Post
    .... importation of Apis Cerana would present and extremely high risk.........
    Agreed and this already has been offered above several times.

    But not only that - authorities will not allow it anyway, pretty obvious case; so the talk is pretty much about nothing.

    Why even go into such an adventure when currently present Apis mm populations are already approaching to Apis cc in Varroa mite resistance.
    This Cerana import possibility, while a curiosity, is not really useful in the present context.
    People should just focus on problems at hand.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Live Oak View Post
    I read through all of this thread and forgive me if I missed the discussion on it but it would seem to me that importation of Apis Cerana would present and extremely high risk........probably so high as to not make it NOT worth the risk of also importing the Tropilaelaps mite which would almost certainly be disastrous to say the least for the North American and South American beekeeping industry.
    Here on this website about Tropilaelaps mites it says that to ship bees infected with Tropilaelaps to places not yet infected with Tropilaelaps you send them as package bees and the Tropilaelaps die of not having brood to feed on. Tropilaelaps are different from Varroa in that they have to have brood to feed on and soon die without it.
    https://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/crea...opilaelaps.htm
    Quote from website "Management" section:
    "Strict monitoring programs have been established throughout the world to prevent further spread of Tropilaelaps beyond its native range. Any transportation of honey bees from an area infested with Tropilaelaps to a region that does not have Tropilaelaps should be done using packages (adult bees only- no comb) rather than established colonies (Figure 3). These packages should be stored away from any honey bee colonies for a minimum of two days. Following a two day hold, any Tropilaelaps that may have been transported within the package will be dead because there is no brood in a package to support mite feeding."

    I would worry more about whether Apis cerana could harm any of our native species of bumble bees or other creatures that have similar habits as honeybees do. Of course if the government ever does import Apis cerana, I think it would be a good idea to give Apis cerana a trial on an island to see what effects come about with our native species.

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Sure, it can be -12C in shade (as properly measured) and at the same time the dark surfaces exposed to the Sun can be quite warm - a typical case in March, for example.
    Sun hitting the dark bees also keeps them warm.
    If bees need to quickly defecate in-and-out - they surely can and will do so.
    Also, maybe the Asian honey bees disengage their flight muscles to their wings and vibrate their flight muscles to warm their bodies up in cold weather. I heard about bumbles doing this, and so bumble bees are the or one of the first bees to be out foraging in the cold spring mornings. Maybe this is the reason why bumble bee species are successful in the mountains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumble...ma_temperature

    Asian honey bees are said to survive freezing better than European bees (http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/species.html)
    Quote from the website:
    "In fact it is reported that A. cerana can survive short spells at freezing point - at which point A. mellifera would have long since died."

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    >A. cerana can survive short spells at freezing point - at which point A. mellifera would have long since died.

    My Apis mellifera have to survive MONTHS of freezing weather. Often Sub-zero F weather. They are not only surviving SHORT spells, but LONG spells. Whoever said that A. mellifera would die in short spells of freezing knows nothing about A. mellifera in freezing weather.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    To get meaningful content, I'd run the question past Dr. Tom Rinderer if he is still at the Baton Rouge federal bee research laboratory. He's the guy any new genetic bee stock coming into the country had to go through, usually in the form of drone semen or eggs, to be isolated on an island off the coast >10 miles for at least 2 years.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Bringing in Apis cerana to the US (Solve varroa problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >A. cerana can survive short spells at freezing point - at which point A. mellifera would have long since died.

    My Apis mellifera have to survive MONTHS of freezing weather. Often Sub-zero F weather. They are not only surviving SHORT spells, but LONG spells. Whoever said that A. mellifera would die in short spells of freezing knows nothing about A. mellifera in freezing weather.
    No, I did not mean that European bees cannot go through winters. I meant the Asian honey bees as individuals can survive freezing while an individual European bee would die before they get close to freezing. It might be that Asian honey bees have antifreeze of some type.

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