German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Does anyone have any thoughts on the actual bees introduced here in the Southeastern United States being Spanish Black bees

    I suspect they are, but it is a question that could be answered by DNA testing. The wild bees in Florida have been tested and are.
    Wow, thank you Michael Bush. I read in a new book at a book store that there was the "M" lineage in North Carolina, Arkansas and other southeastern states, but they did not specifically claim they were certain that they were the German black bee, just that the genetic studies showed that they found bees with percentage of the "M" lineage in them here in the Southeast US. I was wondering if the genetic studies done to prove that German black bees are in the Southeast US were actually just testing for the "M" lineage rather than specifically the German black bee, not knowing that there may be other subspecies of the same "M" lineage in the Southeastern US.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    I was wondering if the genetic studies done to prove that German black bees are in the Southeast US were actually just testing for the "M" lineage rather than specifically the German black bee, not knowing that there may be other subspecies of the same "M" lineage in the Southeastern US.
    Like Pineywoods Cattle.
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  4. #23

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    I checked this PDF file, but I couldn't find that it says that the A. m. iberiensis is of a mix of the "A" lineage and "M" lineage.

    It does say on pages 19 and 20:

    "Some honey bees in the Iberian peninsula found a route through the
    eastern border of the Pyrenees and colonised much of northern
    Europe above the aforementioned mountain ranges. At much the
    same time, other honey bees colonies crossed the Straights of
    Gibraltar from north Africa and interbred with bees that were already
    there."

    "Thus arose the subspecies Apis mellifera mellifera (the dark European
    honey bee) and Apis mellifera iberica. Apis mellifera iberica is a
    relatively modern natural hybrid that arose from the union of two
    older subspecies after the last Ice Age. This is evident in the
    mitochondrial DNA of the subspecies."

    From what I have read the "M" lineage is from Northwestern Africa above the Saharan desert, also Western and Northern Europe. The articles I read could be outdated. The entomologists may not have done any genetics for the taxonomy of these lineages of bees and instead been going by the physical traits only.
    I looked at my book of Ruttner. Iberica is not a crossing, but a very old species, belonging to the group of dark bees in Europe and northern Africa.

    Intermissa is the oldest (Africa)
    then formed Iberica (Spain and Portugal)
    then formed Mellifera Mellifera

    Bees in Iberian peninsula are more diverse than the black bees in the rest of (more northern) Europe, and he writes it is because the ice age spent such a long time over Europe, the black bees in Iberian peninsula had time to develop different subspecies.

    He continues and writes that in there are crossings between Iberica and Intermissa in the Iberian peninsula, but those two belong the same group of black bees (lineage M).

  5. #24
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    Thank you very much for the good photos Eduardo Gomes!
    you're welcomme HaplozygousNut. Today is how we think: our bee is the result of a cross between the A and M strains. We have a variety of scientific data that supports that ... until there is a credible rebuttal. I leave below the summary of a scientific publication that addressed this subject and its source.

    "[…] A more complete picture of the complex diversity patterns of IHBs is revealed that includes 164 novel haplotypes, 113 belonging to lineage A and 51 to lineage M and within lineage A and 69 novel haplotypes that belong to sub-lineage AI, 13 to AII, and 31 to AIII. Within lineage M, two novel haplotypes show a striking architecture with features of lineages A and M, which based on sequence comparisons and relationships among haplotypes are seemingly ancestral. […]" source: https://link.springer.com/article/10...592-017-0498-2

  6. #25

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    you're welcomme HaplozygousNut. Today is how we think: our bee is the result of a cross between the A and M strains. We have a variety of scientific data that supports that ... until there is a credible rebuttal. I leave below the summary of a scientific publication that addressed this subject and its source.

    "[…] A more complete picture of the complex diversity patterns of IHBs is revealed that includes 164 novel haplotypes, 113 belonging to lineage A and 51 to lineage M and within lineage A and 69 novel haplotypes that belong to sub-lineage AI, 13 to AII, and 31 to AIII. Within lineage M, two novel haplotypes show a striking architecture with features of lineages A and M, which based on sequence comparisons and relationships among haplotypes are seemingly ancestral. […]" source: https://link.springer.com/article/10...592-017-0498-2
    Ok.

    M linage is the black bee
    C linage is italian and carnica

    A is a bit more complicated... AI, AII and AIII "The third group contains the reference A. m. intermissa and IHBs of the southwestern half of Iberia (AT2 to AT8, CT4 to CT9, MT4 to MT6). Within the third group, populations of CT4, CT5, and A. m. intermissa formed a well-supported group dominated by sub-lineage AII. Sub-lineage AIII occurred in high proportions in AT3 and AT4, while sub-lineage AI was the most frequent from AT7 to AT8, CT6 to CT9, and MT5 to MT6."

    What confuses me is that they name some groups of this A group with capital C, like CT4, CT5 etc.


    But seems to support what Ruttner says that Intermissa and Iberica have been crossing in the southern(western) part of the Iberian peninsula.

    It sort of says that Iberica is not a race at all???

    I thought, form Ruttner, that Iberica is the original race, which then in the south developed into a hybrid with Intermissa.

    Seems to be that Ruttner and Brother Adam both put Intermissa and Iberica in the same group of black bee races, but in this grouping according to different linages (A, B and C), Iberica disappears as a race. There is only Intermissa and Mellifera, and Iberica is a hybrid between them.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 11-05-2019 at 04:56 AM.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    >>What confuses me is that they name some groups of this A group with capital C, like CT4, CT5 etc.

    Hello Juhani. If I read well the article the use of capital C does not refer to lineage C (carnica, ...) but to the Sampling sites, in the case of CT to "Central transect".

    "Our results reinforce the hypothesis of a hybrid origin for A. m. iberiensis originating from a process of secondary contact (Smith et al. 1991; Chávez-Galarza et al. 2015). The haplotypes form a well-defined M-A cline (Figure 1) and a complex network (Figure 3), which can be explained by multiple origins of haplotypes (Crandall and Templeton 1993) and by a more recent history of diversification of haplotypes belonging to African sub-lineages. The links with large genetic distances that separate the most frequent M haplotypes represent several mutational steps that might have accumulated during the climatic oscillations produced by glacial episodes. Contrary to what is seen in lineage M, lineage A exhibits shorter links for the most frequent haplotypes, suggesting that A haplotypes evolved in a more stable climate and were less affected by the Pleistocenic climatic changes." source: https://link.springer.com/article/10...592-017-0498-2

    P.S. I recently read a paper that concludes that the Italian ligustica is also a hybrid.

  8. #27

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post

    P.S. I recently read a paper that concludes that the Italian ligustica is also a hybrid.
    Hello Eduardo,

    I´d live to have that paper.
    It is so frustrating when lecturing beekeeping and people are stuck up with this race issue. Like this: "I have italian bees because they are yellow" or " I have italian bees, I cannot buy buckfast queens, because they make angry hives."
    Race is actually just a definition of man. Bees live and mate happily without knowing anything about races...

    We have for long known in Finland that our "italian" bee is a crossing between ligustica and the "original" (import from Estonia and Sweden) black bee. Although a crossing, there is some definite interest towards it: The beekeepers in Central Europe are interested in this "italian" bee which winters well and consumes its reserves more thoughtfully.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    I´d live to have that paper.
    It's this one Juhani: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10886654

  10. #29
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    One of the things we know about species dispersal is that maximum genetic diversity is found nearest the center or origin of a species. This entirely supports the origin of the western honeybee in Africa as the species found there have far more diversity than any of the European species. Instead of looking at Iberica as a hybrid, it is probably better to look at it as the first stage of expansion after the last ice age after which bees expanded further up into Western Europe. In other words, A.M.mellifera is probably derived from A.M. Iberica which is derived from A.M. Intermissa. There was a similar paradigm of bees expanding up the eastern side of the Mediterranean resulting in the Italian, Macedonian, and Carniolan groups. We might divide them up into 4 lineages today and we might talk about them spreading out of Africa after the ice age, but where did the bees in Africa come from?
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  11. #30
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    It is so frustrating when lecturing beekeeping and people are stuck up with this race issue. Like this: "I have italian bees because they are yellow" or " I have italian bees, I cannot buy buckfast queens, because they make angry hives."

    Race is actually just a definition of man. Bees live and mate happily without knowing anything about races...

  12. #31

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    In other words, A.M.mellifera is probably derived from A.M. Iberica which is derived from A.M. Intermissa.
    I think this is exactly how Ruttner (and Adam) saw it.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 11-07-2019 at 12:21 AM.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    In other words, A.M.mellifera is probably derived from A.M. Iberica which is derived from A.M. Intermissa.
    The most robust hypothesis now proposes another slightly more complex explanation: during the last glaciation the M lineage survived in some niches of Iberia and expanded again to the north (current France, Germany, ...) after the last glaciation, while the M populations remaining in the Iberian Peninsula hybridized with bees from northern Africa (A), giving rise to the present Am iberiensis, an A / M hybrid.

    "DNA and microsatellites (Smith et al. 1991; Arias and Shepp- ard 1996; Franck et al. 1998; Garnery et al. 1991, 1998, 1998a,b; De la Ru ́ a et al. 1999, 2002b, 2004a,b, 2005a; Ca ́ novas et al. 2002; Arias et al. 2006) have supported the hypothesis that Iberian honeybees are the result of a wide intergradation between honeybees of the M branch that survived the last glaciation event, and North African honeybees of the A lineage that have colonized south-west Europe. In this hypothesis it is assumed that bees of the M lineage survived the last glaciation in different refugia of Iberia and started a northwards colonizing expansion in the last postglacial era, that in the same period there have been one or more colonization waves of honeybees coming from Africa (A lineage), and that hybrid- ization between both lineages has given rise to a clinal distribution of haplotypes A and M, that is more gradual to the east of Iberia and sharp to the northwest (De la Ru ́ a et al. 2005a,b)." source: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

  14. #33

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    The most robust hypothesis now proposes another slightly more complex explanation: during the last glaciation the M lineage survived in some niches of Iberia and expanded again to the north (current France, Germany, ...) after the last glaciation, while the M populations remaining in the Iberian Peninsula hybridized with bees from northern Africa (A), giving rise to the present Am iberiensis, an A / M hybrid.

    "DNA and microsatellites (Smith et al. 1991; Arias and Shepp- ard 1996; Franck et al. 1998; Garnery et al. 1991, 1998, 1998a,b; De la Ru ́ a et al. 1999, 2002b, 2004a,b, 2005a; Ca ́ novas et al. 2002; Arias et al. 2006) have supported the hypothesis that Iberian honeybees are the result of a wide intergradation between honeybees of the M branch that survived the last glaciation event, and North African honeybees of the A lineage that have colonized south-west Europe. In this hypothesis it is assumed that bees of the M lineage survived the last glaciation in different refugia of Iberia and started a northwards colonizing expansion in the last postglacial era, that in the same period there have been one or more colonization waves of honeybees coming from Africa (A lineage), and that hybrid- ization between both lineages has given rise to a clinal distribution of haplotypes A and M, that is more gradual to the east of Iberia and sharp to the northwest (De la Ru ́ a et al. 2005a,b)." source: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
    Ok.
    Ruttner and Adam could not study dna or microsatellites. They looked and measured from outside.

    But about Italian race:
    How can they know, that the Ligurian (with no M linage crossing) type of Italian bee is not the original, like Adam for instance assumed? The hybrid types in the rest of the country could have been forming later?

  15. #34
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    .......... but where did the bees in Africa come from?
    Where did humans in Africa come from?

    This is the same question.
    The bees and the Home spread in a very similar fashion.
    From the original Motherland - Africa.
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  16. #35
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Actually I do not know anymore what these thinner ringed bees that I have are. They seem less hairy than Carniolans and more shiny, and I read here on this Romanian website that Carpathian bees are that way with thinner bands and darker thorax hairs: https://www.renastereastuparitului.c...ca-si-carnica/

    Here is one of those thinner band bees we have (some have the 5th tergite band less than half the segment, so especially narrow, even when seemed to be mixed with lighter Italian.). 1106191352.jpg This colony also has some drones with dark thorax hairs which means that do not sound like Carpathian bees... And Caucasian bees have dark thorax hair drones also, but have very thick bands on abdomen, even more so than Italian and Carniolan from what Dave Cushman said.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Nathaniel:

    I have enjoyed reading this thread. You may have already had the opportunity to read this series of articles written by Dr. Everett Oertel, USDA Research Entomologist published in circular in the American Bee Journal c. 1976, but if not they are well worth the read. It is the most comprehensive and well-researched summary on the topic I have found, at least without the benefit of background genetic testing.

    A summary of this information was also included (attached) in a 1980 USDA publication.

    Have a great weekend.

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  18. #37
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Thank you for the articles Litsinger (Russ). I haven't seen those articles before.

    Nathaniel Long

    These bees around this beetle seem to have thin bands. Would they have some German Black or Spanish black bee in them? They are acting as if the beetle is their queen...
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/10...2a8d99db88.jpg
    I got the photo from here: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/317574211199407816
    Last edited by HaplozygousNut; 11-09-2019 at 05:22 PM.

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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    Thank you for the articles Litsinger (Russ). I haven't seen those articles before.
    Glad to share. If there is one thing I would take away from the history of importation of bees into the Eastern US and the continued migratory practices of commercial beekeeping across the 'lower 48' it is that one might find a little bit of a lot of different bee 'races' in the background genetics of one's bee stock. So from my very humble perspective, it would not surprise me a bit if you were able to find traces of genetics of German and Spanish origin.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  20. #39
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Where did humans in Africa come from?

    This is the same question.
    The bees and the Home spread in a very similar fashion.
    From the original Motherland - Africa.
    but where did the bees in Africa come from? IMO ,,well during the beginning of the Ice age the bees either perished, or moved south. then post Ice age moved back, two times for the 2 major Ice ages. So I would think they moved north adapting were pushed south adapting both times in Africa co mingled. Non Ice age Africa is mostly desert, ICe age it was likely better habitat. Interesting discussion. But with all the movement and the movement caused by people, "Pure Breeds" likely are rare.
    GG

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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    but where did the bees in Africa come from? IMO ,,well during the beginning of the Ice age the bees either perished, or moved south. then post Ice age moved back, two times for the 2 major Ice ages. So I would think they moved north adapting were pushed south adapting both times in Africa co mingled. Non Ice age Africa is mostly desert, ICe age it was likely better habitat. Interesting discussion. But with all the movement and the movement caused by people, "Pure Breeds" likely are rare.
    GG
    Pretty sure, GG, the bees have been formed way, way before any of the recent Ice Ages.
    Talking at least 50M years ago.
    Bees have been around that long ago.
    So, really, these recent Ice Age related moves are very recent peanuts.

    The oldest bee evidence was found in what is now - Africa, if I recall (just like the Hominids - actually formed in what is n0w Africa).
    I am too lazy to google that at the moment, to double-check.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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