German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    DNA testing with honeybees will only date back so many generations, not hundreds of years. This is because of the diverse mating of drones and queens, also due to the fact that some years, more than one queen uses a hive, mates, absconds, and moves on, then another takes up residence, lays, and if it is a good year, swarms off leaving the new queen in charge.

    It takes some very strong isolation to limit the genetic diffusion (think of a drop of red dye spilled into the ocean, in one year it circumnavigates the entire globe), like perhaps honeybees living in Iceland will have some inbred tendencies. Strong selective pressure can change honeybee populations' traits in a hundred years quite drastically. Stable conditions will tend to promote the most favored traits for that set of conditions, but honeybees keep a HUGE diversity of "what if" genetic codes stored in them.

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  3. #42
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    Good reply, kilocharlie. I appreciated the analogy.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  4. #43
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Thank you, Russ, but the heavyweights on this topic are Juhani, Eduardo, Fusion Power, and yourself. It is very educational to hear from folks like these, Eduardo with a whole lot of hands-on experience with A.M. Iberica, Juhani also in Europe and an astute student of bees, Fusion Power with 50 years experience and some massive studies of his own -especially on the advantages and disadvantages of the many hive designs, and you put in nice post with and interesting link. Thank you!

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    Thank you, Russ, but the heavyweights on this topic are Juhani, Eduardo, Fusion Power...
    kilocharlie: Thank you for including me in a list with these guys- I certainly hope to be deserving of such a distinction some day. I for one am grateful for experienced guys like yourself who are willing to patiently endure the rest of us who are diligently working and learning to get to where you all are. Thanks again for your insights- I've learned a lot from several things you've posted recently but only took the time to comment on this particular one. Thanks again.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  6. #45
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    A.m.iberiensis is a natural hybrid M and A lineage. A.m.mellifera (black bee) is M lineage. Photos of my a.m.iberisensis: Attachment 52117Attachment 52119Attachment 52121Attachment 52123
    Eduardo Gomes, do your Spanish Black bees continuously breed drones through the winter at a moderate rate? I had a few hives (darker bees) that did that and was surprised, because from what I heard about the darker subspecies of honey bees like Caucasian and Carniolan being frugal through the winter compared to light colored Italian bees which are said to eat more.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Where did humans in Africa come from?

    This is the same question.
    The bees and the Home spread in a very similar fashion.
    From the original Motherland - Africa.
    That kind of makes sense. People in Africa are by far more diverse genetically. Even in Genesis I read something about when Adam and Eve were made they were somewhere like Ethiopia or something mentioned about Ethiopia...

    I have seen old advertisements in bee magazines about selling Punic bee queens here in the US. I guess those would be A. m. intermissa. Maybe a mountain form to be cold hardy enough to live through our winters here in the US. Those also have thinner bands and look similar to the Spanish blacks and German blacks.

    Apis mellifera intermissa video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HIXqgJFZGA

  7. #46
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Adam and Eve were in the Garden and that was at the confluence of the Tigres and Euphrates rivers, which would be in modern day Iraq.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  8. #47
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Adam and Eve were in the Garden and that was at the confluence of the Tigres and Euphrates rivers, which would be in modern day Iraq.
    Not that I believe this article, but some might beg to differ.
    https://www.livescience.com/mitochon...-homeland.html
    Point is that the origins of the honey bee may be in an area now completely inhospitable to them.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    I'll pay $3.00 U.S for Adam's autograph if it's on a check or money order.

  10. #49
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    >Even in Genesis I read something about when Adam and Eve were made they were somewhere like Ethiopia or something mentioned about Ethiopia...
    >>Not that I believe this article, but some might beg to differ.

    The topic was Genesis. In your article they are talking about a possible person that they are metaphorically calling "Eve". The Bible in Genesis is talking about an actual "Eve" in an actual garden that is located in an actual place which is the confluence of the Tigres and Euphrates rivers. Whether either of these versions of the "Eve" story actually happened is of course taken on faith in one or another narrative. The original topic I was responding to was what the Bible said about the location.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  11. #50

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post

    The topic was Genesis.
    The topic was... German Black bees.

  12. #51
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    Eduardo Gomes, do your Spanish Black bees continuously breed drones through the winter at a moderate rate?
    No. From late July drone breeding begins to decline and from October until March stops. Even worker-breeding stops in many hives between November and early January in the hives of my apiaries. Elsewhere in my country this calendar varies according to the availability of pollen in the field.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Glad to share. If there is one thing I would take away from the history of importation of bees into the Eastern US and the continued migratory practices of commercial beekeeping across the 'lower 48' it is that one might find a little bit of a lot of different bee 'races' in the background genetics of one's bee stock. So from my very humble perspective, it would not surprise me a bit if you were able to find traces of genetics of German and Spanish origin.
    Yes, I think you are right! Buckfast bees alone could have brought in many different subspecies of honeybees.

    Quote from Buckfast bee article from Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_bee#Heritage

    "The following is a list of the subspecies (and strains if stated) that were later included in the Buckfast breeding program by Brother Adam, not all were eventually included into the Buckfast breed: Buckfast (B1), A. m. ligustica (Ligurian strain; all other strains proved susceptible to Acarine, especially those imported from the U.S. and of an all-golden color), A. m. mellifera (Gale's French, Brown Provence, Swedish and Finnish strains; the Irish strain proved itself even more susceptible to Acarine than the British strain), A. m. cypria, A. m. carnica, A. m. cecropia, A. m. meda (Iraqi and Iranian strains), A. m. sahariensis, A. m. anatoliaca (Turkish and Armenian strains), A. m. caucasica, A. m. lamarckii, A. m. monticola (Mt. Elgon strain), A. m. adami and A. m. macedonica (Mt. Athos strain).[4]"

    If the US imported the island subspecies of honeybees that are not doing so well with the importation of foreign subspecies of honeybees (such as the common Italian bees), we might be able to serve as a reservoir for those subspecies that are in danger, such as the Maltese and Cyprian honeybees, which are not doing so well. And, being on an island, which is a small amount of land, it would be easier to wipe out the subspecies. Here in the United States there is a vast amount of land, and so it would probably be hard to wipe out the genetics of these subspecies, as long as the climate is suitable for the subspecies of honeybee introduced (like the warmer southern parts of the US).

    It happens to be that both Egyptian and Spanish Black honeybees are said to have the special ability to breed pure even when foreign subspecies of bees are present. If this is true I wonder if it has helped them survive competition against the common Italian honeybee. They are both living in California and Florida (mild winter areas).

    The Ukrainian (A. m. macedonica), and Carpathian honeybee should be great for most of the United States climate. Most of what we have here in the U.S. is a seasonal climate of cold winters and hot summers from being on a continent. Being from Eastern Europe, their climate should be more similar to ours than the maritime influence of Western Europe and the Mediterranean.

    And the Eastern European forms of the German black bee should be great for the colder places with long winters like Canada. The Canadians should try them, maybe German black bees from Russia or the Ural mountains. They might not make as much honey as say Caucasian honeybees do, but in the harsh winters of Canada, just surviving the winters would be a great trait to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    Adam and Eve were in the Garden and that was at the confluence of the Tigres and Euphrates rivers, which would be in modern day Iraq.
    Sorry, I need to read that part in Genesis more carefully.
    Last edited by HaplozygousNut; 11-21-2019 at 09:39 AM.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    Yes, I think you are right! Buckfast bees alone could have brought in many different subspecies of honeybees.
    Interesting information, Nathaniel. Thank you for sharing. I had not appreciated how many subspecies Brother Adam incorporated into his Buckfast bees. Reminds me that I need to read his "Breeding the Honeybee".
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  15. #54
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    Reminds me that I need to read his "Breeding the Honeybee".
    Nathaniel:

    Let me begin by thanking you for nudging me to finally read through this book (though I imagine this was not the intent of your post regarding Buckfast bees).

    I've been holding-off because it is kind of like planning to climb Mount Everest. It proved to be every bit as challenging as I anticipated.

    While not directly related to your question, I noted that Brother Adam made a statement in the book that may or may not be helpful to your purposes, namely speaking of the Intermissa group as a whole he writes:

    "There would be no point ... in describing these local types individually, as they all without exception possess the essential characteristics of the Intermissa. There are of course differences between them but these are mainly a matter of the degree in which a particular characteristic of the parent stock is manifested."

    He continues, "In every case what we find are just the essential characteristics of the prototype in varying degrees of intensity."

    While he spends some time talking about the well-documented concerns with this group, namely propensity to brood diseases and ferocity, he does see great value in this group for cross-breeding purposes, chiefly for: "...its ability to build up in the spring from a mere handful of bees to a colony of great strength. I know of no other race which has this capacity to the same degree."

    So for us in the Southeast United States who have a genetic background of this group (regardless of their country of origin) we might chalk up some of the attendant inherent benefits and challenges of this group which show up in our regional stocks.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  16. #55

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post

    namely propensity to brood diseases
    In his book Adam sort of groups all black bees under Intermissa. This is in line with his belief that Intermissa from northern Africa is the "fore father" of all black bees in Europe, including iberiensis and mellifera mellifera. Very understandable logic.

    Propensity to brood diseases is a very bad thing in a country like Finland where every third bee yard has AFB spores.

    Keeps me away from this race, even there is a lot of proof about what Adam said, suitability for crossings, for instance the experiments what Ulf Gröhn from Sweden made with Lasö island black bees.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Keeps me away from this race, even there is a lot of proof about what Adam said, suitability for crossings, for instance the experiments what Ulf Gröhn from Sweden made with Lasö island black bees.
    Juhani: I will apologize in advance if you have already addressed this, but do you have any of the Finnish bee in the genetic background of your breeding operation or did you start at square one with imported genetics?
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  18. #57

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    but do you have any of the Finnish bee in the genetic background of your breeding operation or did you start at square one with imported genetics?
    Although I consider the formulation of your question strange, I try to answer.

    The western honey bee is not native in Finland. It was imported from Sweden and Estonia in the late 18th century (year 1780 about, if remember correctly).

    So there actually is no Finnish bee. But to your relief, even Brother Adam wrote about Finnish black bees.

    There is nothing left of the 18th century imported black bees. We once tried to search them, and found black bees, which were all, in wing index studies, found to be perfect combinations of all our 4 imported honeyraces, mellifera, italian, carnica and caucasica.



    Starting at square one in TF beekeeping is not wise. I understand starting at square one as something from the very beginning, where nothing has been done.

    I did start my varroa project with Buckfast bees, but very soon got my first Primosrki. Imported, but not square one.

  19. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    I did start my varroa project with Buckfast bees, but very soon got my first Primosrki. Imported, but not square one.
    Good day, Juhani. Thank you for your reply and I apologize that my question was not very precise.

    That said, I believe your reply answered my inquiry perfectly.

    I was curious if you utilized local stocks as a genetic base for your initial breeding operations and whether those stocks contained any 'M' lineage in them.

    If I understood your reply correctly, you began with Buckfast stock subsequently crossed with Primorsky stock.

    Thus, if I understand the Buckfast lineage correctly there is but scant M background in it, but what is there is derived from French, Finnish and Swedish strains.

    Thank you again for your reply.

    Russ
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  20. #59
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    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    I would like to post the exact mixture of genetics in Buckfast bees, but that would be an impossible task. Suffice to say that at least 20% of their heritage is from Mellifera and another large chunk is from Ligustica.

    the races he used include: Mellifera, Ligustica, Cecropia, Anatoliaca, and Saharensis. Each brought a different set of traits to the table.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  21. #60

    Default Re: German Black bees in the Southeastern US actually Apis mellifera iberiensis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post

    If I understood your reply correctly, you began with Buckfast stock subsequently crossed with Primorsky stock.

    Thus, if I understand the Buckfast lineage correctly there is but scant M background in it, but what is there is derived from French, Finnish and Swedish strains.
    Yes, you understood correctly, but I have to add that before the use of my mating station (1995) there were couple years of free mating, and therefore, although continuously in use for almost 20 years, there might be tiny tiny small fractions of Finnish Italian and Black bees in my stock.

    Brother Adam was in correspondence with Kalle Mäki, a former beekeeper who lived quite near my place. Adam was impressed about the wintering abilities of this race, how small clusters were able to survive the hard Finnish winter with minimal use of stores. Kalle posted some black queens to him. Brother Adam made experiments with these Finnish Black bee, but never merged it into his Buckfast stock. In the end of his experiments he concluded, that the Finnish Black bee is so mixed up and offspring with Buckfast so aggressive and swarmy, that he had to give up.
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 12-07-2019 at 12:30 PM. Reason: add not ad

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