Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    When I closed my business I wanted some time to myself so I lived in St Petersburg for 6 months. Traveled to Russia many times previously and to many areas. It was just what I needed at the time. From my balcony I could see St Issacs dome and the spire of Peter and Paul. I was a 15 minute walk to the gulf of Finland.

    As far as bees, I'll stick with carnolians, at least for now.

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  3. #22
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by John_M View Post
    When I closed my business I wanted some time to myself so I lived in St Petersburg for 6 months. Traveled to Russia many times previously and to many areas. It was just what I needed at the time. From my balcony I could see St Issacs dome and the spire of Peter and Paul. I was a 15 minute walk to the gulf of Finland.

    As far as bees, I'll stick with carnolians, at least for now.
    Very good.
    You should have climbed the St Issacs dome to the top - I have.

    If you visited the Hermitage for several days and took your time to do it - about the best deal you have gotten from St. Pete, IMO.
    Anyways, St. Pete is not the coldest place in Russia by far (but weather overall about the crappiest or close to it, be it summer or winter).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #23
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    Dec 2015
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    Wake Forest, NC
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Wow, that is a lot of good information GregV. Thank you for clearing the mystery about A. m. remipes. I always assumed A. m. remipes was a synonym of the A. m. armeniaca or of A. m. caucasia because remipes was listed in the same range as the other subspecies that are better known or more information about online. It is that the altitudes that keep these distinct subspecies apart in the same area.

    About Apis mellifera pomonella. Here on Wikipedia it says that it is a synonym of Apis mellifera caucasia. Is this true? Were A. m. caucasia introduced to the Tien Shan mountains? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_honey_bee

  5. #24
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    Dec 2015
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    Wake Forest, NC
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by John_M View Post
    When I closed my business I wanted some time to myself so I lived in St Petersburg for 6 months. Traveled to Russia many times previously and to many areas. It was just what I needed at the time. From my balcony I could see St Issacs dome and the spire of Peter and Paul. I was a 15 minute walk to the gulf of Finland.

    As far as bees, I'll stick with carnolians, at least for now.
    It could be that we have Carpathians, and Ukrainian bees here in the US, also, along with the Carniolan bees. That would make things more complicated on identifying which is which, them being similar kinds of bees. I read once in an article written by Susan Cobey in a bee journal that the bees in southern Poland were Carniolan bees. That is the Carpathian mountains she was talking about it seems to me. That would be the Carpathian bees. So I wonder if Susan Cobey has brought in those Carpathian bees as a part of her imports of sperm for her New World Carniolan breeding project thinking they were the same subspecies as Carniolans.

    It seems like Canada has or are importing Carpathian and Ukrainian bees:
    https://www.niagarabeeway.com/store/...Honey_Bee.html
    https://cutisproject.org/en/news/bee-exports/

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    Wow, that is a lot of good information GregV. Thank you for clearing the mystery about A. m. remipes. I always assumed A. m. remipes was a synonym of the A. m. armeniaca or of A. m. caucasia because remipes was listed in the same range as the other subspecies that are better known or more information about online. It is that the altitudes that keep these distinct subspecies apart in the same area.

    About Apis mellifera pomonella. Here on Wikipedia it says that it is a synonym of Apis mellifera caucasia. Is this true? Were A. m. caucasia introduced to the Tien Shan mountains? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_honey_bee
    I don't know of Apis mellifera pomonella - don't care to google right now.
    Speaking of the Uzbekistan/Kirghistan/Kazakhstan - the Caucasians were widely imported there during Soviet times.
    Now being independent and somewhat isolated, I imagine they should have some very localized populations of bees developed (probably pretty darn good bees).

    Here, some of my worst bees doing capping like this.
    Looks like some Caucasian blood is mixed in - almost all solid wet cap.
    20190817_163311.jpg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #26
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    Dec 2015
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by John_M View Post
    Regarding the climate in the caucaus region. In an around Sochi there are tea plantings. In March they showed some winter damage but not much at lower altitudes. I was suprised to find some tea fields high in the mountains north of the city, although they showed much more winter damage. Georgia is between the Caspian and Black Seas and so has weather moderated by both. On the coast of Crimea, in Sevastopal and Yalta, Palm trees have been planted and most seem to survive. In late December they were replacing trees that had been damaged. In early March in Sochi the weather was considerably warmer then here in New York (upstate),only a bit of snow in shaded north facing areas high in the mountains north of the city, and it was considerably warmer than Moscow.
    It's probably colder in the northern caucauses but I doubt that it gets as cold as we get here in New York. Russian's tend to be overly proud of how brutal their winters are, but in my experience of northern European Russia it is no colder than here and they don't get as much snow as here, at least in my experience. Siberia is another story, it's brutal.
    People do not commonly know this, but as it gets colder it tends to get dryer, so less snow when winter gets colder. So more snow does not actually mean that it is a colder climate, it could mean the opposite... Dry snow is dusty/powdery and light in weight and will not make good snowmen or snowballs. But in Canada even though it is cold I see that on the Koppen Climate map that it is moist while Siberia is dry. I guess you can't predict that colder means less snow for sure either.

  8. #27
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    Dec 2015
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I don't know of Apis mellifera pomonella - don't care to google right now.
    Speaking of the Uzbekistan/Kirghistan/Kazakhstan - the Caucasians were widely imported there during Soviet times.
    Now being independent and somewhat isolated, I imagine they should have some very localized populations of bees developed (probably pretty darn good bees).

    Here, some of my worst bees doing capping like this.
    Looks like some Caucasian blood is mixed in - almost all solid wet cap.
    20190817_163311.jpg
    Same with the several colonies we have that I think have good percentage of Caucasian, all the cappings are "wet". Still they are not full Caucasians because of lighter coloration mixed in the workers, and during strong nectar flows instead of syrup feeding they might make "dry" cappings also, I will have to see next year how they cap, dry or wet. Mating in summer after our nectar flows are finished may mate more Caucasian bees... will have to do it more to see if it is consistent.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    ..... as it gets colder it tends to get dryer, so less snow when winter gets colder. .....
    Yes.
    Inner Russia gets more continental - less snow and lower temperatures.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  10. #29
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    Dec 2015
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    Wake Forest, NC
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    It seems to me that the black bees we have that propolize a lot (suspected caucasians) are more shiny, having more contrasted whiter grey bands.

    While the more common black bees we have with carniolan traits (dry cappings for one) are brown haired and seem fuzzier, with little shininess in between bands, though browner hair than the lead grey suspected caucasian bees.

    That is odd. I read that Caucasian bees have thick or thicker bands than Carniolans on Dave Cushman's website: it says "very broad" "much hair" on the 4th tergite for Caucasian bees while just "broad" "much hair" for Carniolan. (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/morphometry.html) I need to take pictures to show the differences between colonies with more extreme Caucasian traits compared to a colonies with more extreme Carniolan traits, but our camera got damaged in a house fire. My father is going to buy another good camera for us.

    I will see whether in spring these bees I think are Caucasian will be sluggish in build-up. This might be a good thing though. They might not make the most honey, but this might be a good way to try cheating in breeding a bee that doesn't swarm...

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    It seems to me that the black bees we have that propolize a lot (suspected caucasians) are more shiny, having more contrasted whiter grey bands.

    While the more common black bees we have with carniolan traits (dry cappings for one) are brown haired and seem fuzzier, with little shininess in between bands, though browner hair than the lead grey suspected caucasian bees.

    That is odd. I read that Caucasian bees have thick or thicker bands than Carniolans on Dave Cushman's website: it says "very broad" "much hair" on the 4th tergite for Caucasian bees while just "broad" "much hair" for Carniolan. (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/morphometry.html) I need to take pictures to show the differences between colonies with more extreme Caucasian traits compared to a colonies with more extreme Carniolan traits, but our camera got damaged in a house fire. My father is going to buy another good camera for us.

    I will see whether in spring these bees I think are Caucasian will be sluggish in build-up. This might be a good thing though. They might not make the most honey, but this might be a good way to try cheating in breeding a bee that doesn't swarm...
    I would not pay attention too much to the appearance anymore.
    It is melting pot and does not much matter here and now (US).

    My #2 resource hive propolized the hack out of (just wow).
    Good deal I am not commercial (the commercials would probably requeen these bees).
    By appearance just simple mutts, yellowing some.
    Nothing Caucasian in them by the looks.

    I will continue saying this - outside of the Caucasus region, there are no Caucasian bees (UNLESS you got a direct queen shipment from them - you'll have one generation maybe).
    It is impossible and I am not sure why this idea does not get traction.
    The geographic location defines the local bee. All it is.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #31
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    Dec 2015
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I would not pay attention too much to the appearance anymore.
    It is melting pot and does not much matter here and now (US).

    My #2 resource hive propolized the hack out of (just wow).
    Good deal I am not commercial (the commercials would probably requeen these bees).
    By appearance just simple mutts, yellowing some.
    Nothing Caucasian in them by the looks.

    I will continue saying this - outside of the Caucasus region, there are no Caucasian bees (UNLESS you got a direct queen shipment from them - you'll have one generation maybe).
    It is impossible and I am not sure why this idea does not get traction.
    The geographic location defines the local bee. All it is.

    I am curious to how extreme your #2 colony propolizes? When the bottom board has a summer entrance of over an inch in height these suspected caucasians I wrote about that I have had in the past made a curtain of propolis at the entrance. The curtain of propolis curving inward into the colony, leaving a beespace so that the curtain of propolis is not quite touching the bottom board, like bees building comb. Do any of your hives do this in autumn GregV?

    I have bred bees that were particularly light and those bees do propilize more than our common brown mutts. I was breeding from an aggressive colony and got some unusually light bees (out of all our bees here in NC). Some of the workers are so light that there is only one black segment at the abdomen tip or almost so. They are very aggressive bees and paler yellow. I have seen a picture of what I read were true/pure Cyprian bees, and the Cyprian bee workers uniformly had black tipped abdomens with light yellow bodies, but I can't remember exactly what they looked like in that picture.

    I believe I could breed for the Caucasian bee traits from our local mutts and breed a bee that is almost pure Caucasian bee, but I might need to be able to do instrumental insemination to help. I have been thinking of how to make the tools needed since it is expensive to buy the equipment. I was told a 3D printer may be able to make the small diameter needle and some other parts.

    The darker bees with these Caucasian traits tend to supersede their queens during our early nectar flow in February, so it is disappointing to loose the queens before I breed from them. They also seem to occasionally supersede during the summer, maybe especially if they get an unusual short nectar flow from maybe soybean or cotton, and soon after the nectar flow is over the virgin queen goes out on a mating flight and gets killed by the workers balling her when she comes back from her mating flight. This is hard to deal with because if you don't catch the dying queenless colony early enough, wax moths can eat the comb of a large colony that dies this way. I have not had a lot of times this has happened, but I have witnessed consistent balling of queens when coming back from mating flights during the summer dearth, weak/small colonies though will successfully mate their queens during the summer dearth.

    Subspecies of bees are bees that are different genetically, and so are not just locally adapted forms of the same kind of bee. It is true that there are different locally adapted forms within a subspecies of bee. I think it is important to preserve the genetics of these different subspecies of bees. Fortunately the German black bees in Great Britain, from what I have read, are coming back naturally, probably because they are the most suited for that region/climate. http://www.northumbrianbees.co.uk/ap...-bee-ancestry/

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Distinguishing between Carniolan and Caucasian honey bees

    Quote Originally Posted by HaplozygousNut View Post
    I am curious to how extreme your #2 colony propolizes? When the bottom board has a summer entrance of over an inch in height these suspected caucasians I wrote about that I have had in the past made a curtain of propolis at the entrance. The curtain of propolis curving inward into the colony, leaving a beespace so that the curtain of propolis is not quite touching the bottom board, like bees building comb. Do any of your hives do this in autumn GregV?
    No curtains here.
    Most all my bees are now reduced to only one-two 0.5' round entrance (by me).
    20190925_163954.jpg
    No need for them to do the same; they are busy unplugging themselves to the comfort levels.

    What they do, however, is to completely plug any irregularities between the top bars (common with me) and heavy layer on the burlap, thus creating a non-permeable ceiling.
    Here are summer pictures - not too bad yet.
    20190817_132431.jpg
    20190817_132409.jpg

    In pre-winter this propolis ceiling is so heavy, I am reluctant to even break into it.
    I wish all the propolis amounted to all kinds of anti-pest/anti-infection outcomes and crazy resistant bees - but pretty sure all that is non-sense.
    This is all about plugging the holes shut with natural cement.
    I need to harvest some and make tincture already.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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