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different size deep horizontal hives

9K views 42 replies 5 participants last post by  ursa_minor 
#1 ·
Hi, everyone,

here are pics and specs for the hives I built Lazutin inspired.

Grass Herb Plant Plant community Groundcover

This one is 17" x 17" by 22". I originally built it to be a swarm trap. Then my buddy gave me a swarm he caught so I put the swarm in it and decided to leave it there. Curiously, the bees decided to start building comb at the bottom of the frames.

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This is the frame design I use. The top bar is 17". The "frame" has a 15" top and bottom and the vertical bars are 17" long. It's clunky I know, but it's the best I can do.

Wood Plant community

I have two of the dimensions 17" by 33" by 22". These I made last year. One of them I placed a hard partition, because the long boards were warping and "squeezing" the frames. The other has a follower board.

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I have two of the dimensions 19.5" by 19.5" by 22". These I made to adapt langstroth nucs I received from Blue Ridge. So each box has five langstroth frames and the rest of the frames are clunky ones I hand made. These frames are 19.5" top bars, with 17" top and bottom and vertical bars are 17" long.

So, you may realize there is a several inch gap between the bottom of the frames and the hive bottom. This was deliberate.

The entrances are on the east side of the hive, but right next to the south side. the 19.5" hives have a 1.25 inch diameter size entrance, one entrance. The 17" hives have 1 inch diameter size entrance and smaller holes around the entrance, 1/4 inch.

This is all experimental for me. I want to see how the bees do in these different dimension hives.
 
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#3 ·
This is the frame design I use. The top bar is 17". The "frame" has a 15" top and bottom and the vertical bars are 17" long. It's clunky I know, but it's the best I can do.
Don't 'under-sell' yourself - that looks perfectly fine to me :)
Skinny frames were invented by manufacturers looking to minimise manufacturing costs, and thus increase their profits.

So, you may realize there is a several inch gap between the bottom of the frames and the hive bottom. This was deliberate.
Sure - such a gap shouldn't become a problem with such deep frames - in fact the bees will probably thank you for it.

This is all experimental for me. I want to see how the bees do in these different dimension hives.
Best reason in the world. Best of luck with 'em.
Thanks for posting ...
LJ
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the encouragement John

Don't 'under-sell' yourself - that looks perfectly fine to me :)
Skinny frames were invented by manufacturers looking to minimise manufacturing costs, and thus increase their profits.


Sure - such a gap shouldn't become a problem with such deep frames - in fact the bees will probably thank you for it.


Best reason in the world. Best of luck with 'em.
Thanks for posting ...
LJ
 
#12 ·
Here is a good set of images for Lazutin frames in field (including for sale)

https://www.google.com/search?q=рам...ip7iAhXhna0KHTXdDO8Q_AUIDigB&biw=1920&bih=938

I just think the shallow frame should be attached above (NOT below).
Somehow the general thinking so far has not realized this (that the honey is usually stored above and best to detach it from above).
Donno what they are thinking. Blindly copying each other, I guess.
:)
 
#13 ·
Somehow the general thinking so far has not realized this (that the honey is usually stored above and best to detach it from above).
Although that is generally true, it's not been my experience thus far with extra-deep combs in single-story hives - but rather the bees have selected one comb for 'wall-to-wall' brood, another for 'wall-to-wall' pollen - and this is where it gets tricky - another for 'wall-to-wall' honey. Even a 12" deep honey comb - when fully capped - can seriously strain the fingers ! When I first tried to pull a 14" honey comb, I thought it had become glued to the hive bottom it was so heavy.

Hopefully the bees will use your combs as intended Greg, but don't be too surprised if the little darlings have other ideas ! :) They can sometimes be a law unto themselves ...
'best,
LJ
 
#18 ·
Well - talking of a resulting mess (different kind of mess) - here's an interesting (perhaps ?) finding ...

As you may recall, I've been trialling 14" deep combs, and although it was a success, 'twas not enough of a success to warrant having a unique frame depth in the apiary - so I've been progressively reducing them to 12" (which is a standard depth over here), and now intend to trial double-deep frames (16.5") - which are already made - in their place.

Yesterday found me reducing the last two of these 14" frames - but - there was capped honey all the way down to the bottom of the combs, and the 2" I needed to slice-off caused honey to drip all over the workbench - what a mess !

So I resorted to using kitchen towels to mop-up the worse of it and to hold the pieces of sliced-off comb. These were placed in the topmost box of the new stack - which now consists of a 12" brood box with two 8.5" 5-frame nuc boxes above - to be picked over. I fully expected to find shredded paper towels in front of the hive the next morning, but this wasn't to be.

Instead, what I found was that shredded paper towels had been dumped at the bottom of the hive, and so had passed through the Open Mesh Floor. Here's a pic (not very clear):



And here's what it looks like after being pulled out:



So - this suggests that hive cleaning is a two-stage process: bees on the combs just chuck whatever offends them down towards the hive bottom, where it's presumably picked-up by other bees and then carried out of the hive entrance. Only in this case, the presence of a mesh floor saved them the trouble. :)
LJ
 
#19 ·
,,,,,,,,,So - this suggests that hive cleaning is a two-stage process: bees on the combs just chuck whatever offends them down towards the hive bottom, where it's presumably picked-up by other bees and then carried out of the hive entrance. Only in this case, the presence of a mesh floor saved them the trouble. :)
LJ
Coincidentally, I am taking a day off from the office so I can attend to my bees (lots to do).
So I will go into that hive with the "trash on the floor" to work out the splitting situation.

I mean to look inside and document IF the "trash on the floor" is still there or not (see "eco-floor" topic).
No idea what I will find.
If I suspect correctly, that trash will still be there because I suspect bees don't care of it (due to the hive/frame design).
This has been 1+ month since I gave them the hive with the shavings stuffed into the walls - more than enough time for a complete house cleaning job.
If the floor is clean - I am in the wrong. Hehe.
 
#21 ·
Ok - staying a little more on topic - FWIW - here's my effort at producing double-deep frames - these were/are intended to be used as standing frames in something approaching an A-Z hive:



And with a starter comb, and a top-bar added so that they can be drawn out within a stack of two standard deep boxes:



I suppose that if a person was interested in harvesting honey, then the topmost section could be cut away for crushing and straining, and then re-drawn without affecting the sections of comb lower down ? Dunno - honey's not on my radar.
LJ
 
#22 ·
........I suppose that if a person was interested in harvesting honey, then the topmost section could be cut away for crushing and straining, and then re-drawn without affecting the sections of comb lower down ? Dunno - honey's not on my radar.
LJ
Should work.
I do just about that.

But also I started recognizing now that single deep frame is best for end-of-season harvest.
Mid-season/early-season - not so much.
Hence started this hybrid-hive project - super-deep brood chamber/conventional super(s) on the top.
Reportedly (written/video), queens never even come out of the super-deep chambers (they like them so much) - no need for any QAs when supering.
 
#33 ·
Hi Greg - I love some of these videos you dig up, where guys are just 'tearing-up the rule-book' ... :)

I don't see any particular problem in using standing frames in a single-story hive - but "how to stack frames" has always had me puzzled. The only possible solutions being those of the A-Z system (2 or 3 supporting steel rods) or the 'Mother-of-God' approach from the Ukraine, where 3 frames are strapped together for stability:



But - your man now shows us another possibility ... :)
'best
LJ
 
#34 ·
Hi Greg - I love some of these videos you dig up, where guys are just 'tearing-up the rule-book' ... :)

......But - your man now shows us another possibility ... :)
'best
LJ
Watch this (below).
Go to 6:00 and enjoy on forward - this is how about 100 kilos of honey look like - just stacked up.
This guy does not give a slightest poop about the so-called conventions.

People are going panicky about a millimeter to the right, so to speak....
Well, watch this guy and observe that "an extra millimeter to the right" is not the end of the world in the slightest.
A nut job (and is doing very well for himself - selling tons of bees and honey; raising queens for sale - people are begging for his queens).

I am learning from beeks like him to really just play by the ear and by my own senses and observations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHbsBuK3H9I

Before 6:00 he is demonstrating his queen-raising operation (to those interested, not really my thing).
 
#37 ·
Hi - yes, as Greg said (he knows my modus operandi) - I use screws. 25mm x 3mm (or 1" by 1/8" in the old money).

The advantages for me of screws is that they provide adjustable spacing, and have very little contact area - so bees are almost exempt from being crushed when closing-up frames.
I can't show the frames pictured earlier as they're now in use - but I'm only using one of those division boards right now, so have photographed the other instead:



Because of the length involved, I've fitted screws at both top and bottom.

I can show you some more use of screws, but only on a smaller frame:



Just a bit of a difference ... :)


So - here's a view down onto the top bar of those smaller 'Gallup' frames:



... and here's what a box-full looks like:



The first top bar (without the black mark) is a dummy frame - I use those quite a lot.

When using screws like this, the only necessity is to ensure that the first frame is parallel to the box end wall - that's easy enough to do using the Mk.I eyeball - from then on, just shove the frames up against each other in the normal way. :)

Anything else ? - Oh yes, you asked about wood sizes on those extra-deep frames.

The sides are 25mm x 15mm, and the top and bottom bars are 25mm x 25mm. The reason I made such a heavy-duty bottom bar is in case I install these as standing frames onto (probably) a pair of steel rods, 'cause there'll be a LOT of weight in those frames, and I don't want the bottom bar to bend.
'best
LJ
 
#38 · (Edited)
Yes!!!!, that makes perfect sense, I was considering a spacer but when Greg talked about alignment I realized that getting each screw head to line up with the other could be troublesome. Putting them as you do makes perfect sense.
 
#41 ·
My recommended spacers are just wooden pieces stapled to the side bars.
This is very similar to Hoffman frame style, except made from wood scraps (no fidgeting with the Hoffman-style side bar cutting) - absolutely unnecessary.
With the stapled spacers you are not concerned with perfect alignment - you will get it with no special efforts.

Of course, I cheat every time I can get away with it, being lazy, cheap, and short on time.
I reuse Lang equipment and take advantage of what is there for taking - like the built-in spacing.
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#39 · (Edited)
Thank you GregV, I love those Russian beekeeping videos you post, they show a side of beekeeping that is appealing. Reading for and entire year about all the things you 'should' do, as well as a litany of things 'not' to do can be very daunting to a new beekeeper. When you get into the information on emergency feeding, what to feed, when to feed, swarm control, bee space, cross comb, foundation or not, treatments, etc. it almost froze me into not doing bees at all.

I never considered that too much insulation overhead can be a problem.

I have made 40 layens top touching frames, can I use them in the honey stores, and use the new open bars in the brood area so I can put feed over them in the winter? Or is it too hard to keep the bees to certain frames.

Maybe I should notch the original frames some how?
 
#40 · (Edited)
I too made my initial batch of the modified Layens - touching (due to the influence by Leo Sharashkin).
What a pain it caused later on.
Most importantly I would argue against the idea of "never feeding your bees" - just simply "never say never" because you never know.

I would recommend notching your already made frames to allow the vertical pass-through ability.
Absolutely, keep using your already made frames - just consider modifying them.
The vertical pass-through is required for proper cold-season feeding, allows optional vertical supering, and makes quick visual inspections possible from the above.
Practice shows that it is hard to separate frames into "brooding area" frames and "honey area" frames.
Just assume any frame will be used anywhere indiscriminately and at any time.

Go here (jump to 2:00 and observe how Matt has made the "path-through" notches to his frames using router - Matt had to go back and retro-modify his Layens frames too).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKdkIP-kgf0

In fact, scan through the entire channel "Matt's beekeeping" and learn from him.
Too bad, the traffic on the channel was low and Matt stopped posting his vids.
I highly recommend his materials for self-learning.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCJaKBgUnkN_EbuaWtyZkTA
 
#43 ·
Thank you both, you have saved me a lot of frustration that I would have had if I did not set up a system to feed the bees properly. I am glad I asked the question before my bees arrived, they come in a week or two.

I have already set up the router to modify my frames and I am going to make my new ones with the open spacing.

Before I use either the screws or the wood spacers I will double check that the top bars are all the same width.
 
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