different size deep horizontal hives
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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb different size deep horizontal hives

    Hi, everyone,

    here are pics and specs for the hives I built Lazutin inspired.

    IMG_1191.jpg
    This one is 17" x 17" by 22". I originally built it to be a swarm trap. Then my buddy gave me a swarm he caught so I put the swarm in it and decided to leave it there. Curiously, the bees decided to start building comb at the bottom of the frames.

    IMG_1196.jpg
    This is the frame design I use. The top bar is 17". The "frame" has a 15" top and bottom and the vertical bars are 17" long. It's clunky I know, but it's the best I can do.

    IMG_1193.jpg
    I have two of the dimensions 17" by 33" by 22". These I made last year. One of them I placed a hard partition, because the long boards were warping and "squeezing" the frames. The other has a follower board.

    IMG_1194.jpg
    I have two of the dimensions 19.5" by 19.5" by 22". These I made to adapt langstroth nucs I received from Blue Ridge. So each box has five langstroth frames and the rest of the frames are clunky ones I hand made. These frames are 19.5" top bars, with 17" top and bottom and vertical bars are 17" long.

    So, you may realize there is a several inch gap between the bottom of the frames and the hive bottom. This was deliberate.

    The entrances are on the east side of the hive, but right next to the south side. the 19.5" hives have a 1.25 inch diameter size entrance, one entrance. The 17" hives have 1 inch diameter size entrance and smaller holes around the entrance, 1/4 inch.

    This is all experimental for me. I want to see how the bees do in these different dimension hives.
    My grandfather and great-uncle kept bees and my fiancée's grandfather, too. I want to pass this tradition along.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunzow View Post
    Hi, everyone,
    .............
    This is all experimental for me. I want to see how the bees do in these different dimension hives.
    Cool.
    Thanks for sharing, Thomas.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunzow View Post
    This is the frame design I use. The top bar is 17". The "frame" has a 15" top and bottom and the vertical bars are 17" long. It's clunky I know, but it's the best I can do.
    Don't 'under-sell' yourself - that looks perfectly fine to me
    Skinny frames were invented by manufacturers looking to minimise manufacturing costs, and thus increase their profits.

    So, you may realize there is a several inch gap between the bottom of the frames and the hive bottom. This was deliberate.
    Sure - such a gap shouldn't become a problem with such deep frames - in fact the bees will probably thank you for it.

    This is all experimental for me. I want to see how the bees do in these different dimension hives.
    Best reason in the world. Best of luck with 'em.
    Thanks for posting ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  5. #4
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    thanks for the feedback, Greg.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Cool.
    Thanks for sharing, Thomas.
    My grandfather and great-uncle kept bees and my fiancée's grandfather, too. I want to pass this tradition along.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Thanks for the encouragement John

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Don't 'under-sell' yourself - that looks perfectly fine to me
    Skinny frames were invented by manufacturers looking to minimise manufacturing costs, and thus increase their profits.


    Sure - such a gap shouldn't become a problem with such deep frames - in fact the bees will probably thank you for it.


    Best reason in the world. Best of luck with 'em.
    Thanks for posting ...
    LJ
    My grandfather and great-uncle kept bees and my fiancée's grandfather, too. I want to pass this tradition along.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunzow View Post
    thanks for the feedback, Greg.
    Btw, over the winter I had a big windfall of full Dadant frames and a big lot of medium Lang frames.
    Lots and lots of frames.

    Just because I have these, I now want to setup a couple of hives based on 1.5 Dadant frames (these are unlike my current narrow setup - these will be standard Lang/Dadant width).
    The frames will be as pictured (6.25" + 11.75" tall - about the same height as my current tall-narrow frames).
    This somewhat is incompatible to my current system - but itching to try.
    I have this big pile of equipment on hand now and want try out the hybrid hives where I can run frames the long-way or the short-way.

    1.5 Dadant Frame (same as Lazutin, but I prefer the shallow frame above, not below):
    1.5DadantFrame.jpg
    Hybrid setup:
    - the brood chamber takes up to ten 1.5 Dadant frames the long way OR up to 14 Ukrainian frames the short way.
    - honey supers take up to ten standard Land medium (standard Land med box)
    20180922_155652.jpg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Hey, Greg,

    I was curious what your experience with this was.

    thanks-
    Thomas

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    1.5 Dadant Frame (same as Lazutin, but I prefer the shallow frame above, not below):
    1.5DadantFrame.jpg
    My grandfather and great-uncle kept bees and my fiancée's grandfather, too. I want to pass this tradition along.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    With that 1.5 piggyback Dadant frame you will find that a lot of your honey crop is in the brood chamber with no means to extract those giant frames. All of these experiments were already done 150 years ago and that is why we today use a shorter frame with supers on top so that we can remove those supers to extract them. A frame that deep is also hard to lift and manage. Do a Search for my threads "Gargantua" many years ago. The pictures are now locked in Photobucket that showed the result. I had to cut down the frames to a manageable size.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Btw, over the winter I had a big windfall of full Dadant frames and a big lot of medium Lang frames.
    Lots and lots of frames.

    Just because I have these, I now want to setup a couple of hives based on 1.5 Dadant frames (these are unlike my current narrow setup - these will be standard Lang/Dadant width).
    The frames will be as pictured (6.25" + 11.75" tall - about the same height as my current tall-narrow frames).
    This somewhat is incompatible to my current system - but itching to try.
    I have this big pile of equipment on hand now and want try out the hybrid hives where I can run frames the long-way or the short-way.

    1.5 Dadant Frame (same as Lazutin, but I prefer the shallow frame above, not below):

    Hybrid setup:
    - the brood chamber takes up to ten 1.5 Dadant frames the long way OR up to 14 Ukrainian frames the short way.
    - honey supers take up to ten standard Land medium (standard Land med box)
    All of my opinions and suggestions are based on my five decades of actual beekeeping,
    not so much on book learning, watching YouTube videos nor reading internet sites.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunzow View Post
    Hey, Greg,

    I was curious what your experience with this was.

    thanks-
    Thomas
    No personal experience - just reading some materials and some thinking about.

    Want to see for myself how it will work in my equipment (for me and for the bees).
    I like the depth and I can see it as satisfactory for the bees (~18 inches, just like mine).
    The widths is less to like - BUT convenient for equipment exchange.
    I must just grow to like the setup after some trials.
    Totally see how I can winter on just five 1.5 Dadant frames.
    Want to try and see.
    People in Siberia do it successfully, after all.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    With that 1.5 piggyback Dadant frame you will find that a lot of your honey crop is in the brood chamber with no means to extract those giant frames. .
    Why should I extract them?

    This is what the honey super(s) above are for - for extraction.

    Anything below - bee food.
    I don't take that.
    I may cut into it for any reason (bad comb/old comb/perga harvest/whatever). No extraction.

    Added:
    - but also notice how I construct my 1.5 Dadants - the shallow frame is bolted ABOVE; see that?
    - reason for the "above" placement - undo few screws - extract the shallow frame because that is where the honey will be - bolt it back
    - so, the flexibility is there (unlike in the original Lazutin frames - the shallow was bolted below - poor thinking IMO)
    - I don't really mean it to be a routine, but it is an available option (to say harvest from a dead-out)
    Last edited by GregV; 05-15-2019 at 10:54 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Do a Search for my threads "Gargantua" many years ago. The pictures are now locked in Photobucket that showed the result. I had to cut down the frames to a manageable size.
    Found them.
    Nice pics.
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ight=Gargantua

    This is exactly why you do NOT want mono-body large frames.
    Because sometimes you do want to extract them (say your bees died).
    Well - detach/extract/attach back/done.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Here is a good set of images for Lazutin frames in field (including for sale)

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%...w=1920&bih=938

    I just think the shallow frame should be attached above (NOT below).
    Somehow the general thinking so far has not realized this (that the honey is usually stored above and best to detach it from above).
    Donno what they are thinking. Blindly copying each other, I guess.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Somehow the general thinking so far has not realized this (that the honey is usually stored above and best to detach it from above).
    Although that is generally true, it's not been my experience thus far with extra-deep combs in single-story hives - but rather the bees have selected one comb for 'wall-to-wall' brood, another for 'wall-to-wall' pollen - and this is where it gets tricky - another for 'wall-to-wall' honey. Even a 12" deep honey comb - when fully capped - can seriously strain the fingers ! When I first tried to pull a 14" honey comb, I thought it had become glued to the hive bottom it was so heavy.

    Hopefully the bees will use your combs as intended Greg, but don't be too surprised if the little darlings have other ideas ! They can sometimes be a law unto themselves ...
    'best,
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  15. #14
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    .....Hopefully the bees will use your combs as intended Greg, but don't be too surprised if the little darlings have other ideas ! They can sometimes be a law unto themselves ...
    'best,
    LJ
    Will see, LJ.

    I am not shy to report back both successes and failures.
    Either way.
    What makes it fun.

    Unfortunately (OR fortunately?? - don't know which) - with our crazy hybridization here impossible to predict how every single queen (and the bees; and the traits) will turn out.
    It has been reported how the dark forest AMM bees like to have the honey stored overheard.
    But yet, the dark mountain Caucasions reportedly store the honey into the nest all over.
    Mix these up and enjoy the resulting mess.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    This is an interesting idea. I think it is worth exploring.
    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    Why should I extract them?

    This is what the honey super(s) above are for - for extraction.

    Anything below - bee food.
    I don't take that.
    I may cut into it for any reason (bad comb/old comb/perga harvest/whatever). No extraction.

    Added:
    - but also notice how I construct my 1.5 Dadants - the shallow frame is bolted ABOVE; see that?
    - reason for the "above" placement - undo few screws - extract the shallow frame because that is where the honey will be - bolt it back
    - so, the flexibility is there (unlike in the original Lazutin frames - the shallow was bolted below - poor thinking IMO)
    - I don't really mean it to be a routine, but it is an available option (to say harvest from a dead-out)
    My grandfather and great-uncle kept bees and my fiancée's grandfather, too. I want to pass this tradition along.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Oh well, too late for me re: mono-body large frames. Does it matter whether foundationless or with foundation? Mine are foundationless.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post

    This is exactly why you do NOT want mono-body large frames.
    Because sometimes you do want to extract them (say your bees died).
    Well - detach/extract/attach back/done.
    My grandfather and great-uncle kept bees and my fiancée's grandfather, too. I want to pass this tradition along.

  18. #17
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunzow View Post
    Oh well, too late for me re: mono-body large frames. Does it matter whether foundationless or with foundation? Mine are foundationless.
    Well, you do want some mid-ribs to support the combs (two is a good #).
    Handy when pasting some code into them.
    20180708_144305.jpg

    Or do wires (but I dislike wires anymore - hard to attach combs into those, unlike the horizontal planks).

    For 1.5 Dadants, I want to add a vertical mid-rib (like on the modified picture).
    1.5DadantFrame.jpg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Well - talking of a resulting mess (different kind of mess) - here's an interesting (perhaps ?) finding ...

    As you may recall, I've been trialling 14" deep combs, and although it was a success, 'twas not enough of a success to warrant having a unique frame depth in the apiary - so I've been progressively reducing them to 12" (which is a standard depth over here), and now intend to trial double-deep frames (16.5") - which are already made - in their place.

    Yesterday found me reducing the last two of these 14" frames - but - there was capped honey all the way down to the bottom of the combs, and the 2" I needed to slice-off caused honey to drip all over the workbench - what a mess !

    So I resorted to using kitchen towels to mop-up the worse of it and to hold the pieces of sliced-off comb. These were placed in the topmost box of the new stack - which now consists of a 12" brood box with two 8.5" 5-frame nuc boxes above - to be picked over. I fully expected to find shredded paper towels in front of the hive the next morning, but this wasn't to be.

    Instead, what I found was that shredded paper towels had been dumped at the bottom of the hive, and so had passed through the Open Mesh Floor. Here's a pic (not very clear):



    And here's what it looks like after being pulled out:



    So - this suggests that hive cleaning is a two-stage process: bees on the combs just chuck whatever offends them down towards the hive bottom, where it's presumably picked-up by other bees and then carried out of the hive entrance. Only in this case, the presence of a mesh floor saved them the trouble.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  20. #19
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    ,,,,,,,,,So - this suggests that hive cleaning is a two-stage process: bees on the combs just chuck whatever offends them down towards the hive bottom, where it's presumably picked-up by other bees and then carried out of the hive entrance. Only in this case, the presence of a mesh floor saved them the trouble.
    LJ
    Coincidentally, I am taking a day off from the office so I can attend to my bees (lots to do).
    So I will go into that hive with the "trash on the floor" to work out the splitting situation.

    I mean to look inside and document IF the "trash on the floor" is still there or not (see "eco-floor" topic).
    No idea what I will find.
    If I suspect correctly, that trash will still be there because I suspect bees don't care of it (due to the hive/frame design).
    This has been 1+ month since I gave them the hive with the shavings stuffed into the walls - more than enough time for a complete house cleaning job.
    If the floor is clean - I am in the wrong. Hehe.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  21. #20
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    Default Re: different size deep horizontal hives

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    So - this suggests that hive cleaning is a two-stage process: bees on the combs just chuck whatever offends them down towards the hive bottom, where it's presumably picked-up by other bees and then carried out of the hive entrance. Only in this case, the presence of a mesh floor saved them the trouble.
    LJ
    OR, LJ, the trash could have stayed right there - on the floor - for some veeeeery long time.
    That may very well be the deep hive/cavity attribute and actually maybe just the norm.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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