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Thread: EFB options

  1. #241
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    4,680

    Default Re: EFB options

    At the initial stages when the nurse bees are in full force and cleaning out the infected larvae as soon as they identify it, I think you would not see the discolored, misshapen larvae that are so visible at the later stages when the nurse bees are fighting a losing battle. Perhaps the secondary bacteria that cause the odor also have not proliferated yet, either. I certainly missed the onset of it and so did a bee inspector!

    I cannot speak to the queen connection but am inclined to believe their larval stage would be susceptable. I dont think queen replacement would be an automatic cure either but a brood break would be of some significance but hardly a cure in itself when brood rearing has been so compromised for any length of time. Kind of like putting the leeches on a starving man!

    I am surprised that the significance of Oldtimers post has not been more of an "ah ha!" suggestion. For whatever reason, there seems to be a discrepancy in people experience with the syndrome that is at least loosely attributed to melissococcus plutons.
    Frank

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  3. #242
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    10,128

    Default Re: EFB options

    wow. it sounds like efb may be highly endemic there msl.

    you can bet your neighbor's hives are infected if only 50' away.

    has your state bee inspector gotten involved?
    Last edited by squarepeg; 08-06-2019 at 03:14 PM.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #243
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
    Posts
    1,832

    Default Re: EFB options

    Sadly no inspectors here, and if there were not sure they could keep up, thousands of backyard beekeepers

    At the initial stages when the nurse bees are in full force and cleaning out the infected larvae as soon as they identify it, I think you would not see the discolored, misshapen larvae that are so visible at the later stages when the nurse bees are fighting a losing battle
    I have seen this, brood pattern gets a bit spoty, but no sick larva. but what makes this instresting was a sold brood pattern and build up, this was a hive I had picked out as a breeder. On the cell builder, before OTC I shook off and inspected every comb, Still had a good brood pattern, I fould just 3 off larve, but they looked more sack brood than anything

    there is a lot of stuff out there that sujests infections with out sysmtons
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...248-004-0188-2
    Distribution of Melissococcus plutonius in Honeybee Colonies with and without Symptoms of European Foulbrood
    Larvae from brood samples with and without clinical signs of disease (n = 92) and honey (n = 92) from the same colonies were investigated. Individual larvae (n = 60) and pupae (n = 30) from diseased brood in single colonies were also investigated to study the distribution of the bactersium within the brood between larvae. M. plutonius was detected in larvae in all apiaries where symptoms of EFB could be seen, but not in all colonies judged as cases of EFB in the field, when healthy-looking larvae from such colonies were tested. The occurrence of the bacterium within the brood was not limited to larvae with symptoms only
    In breeding super bees tabor notes that hives that outher wise look fine may be infected and he starts treating with OTC when he gets sub 90% cell acceptance.
    Last edited by msl; 08-06-2019 at 08:39 PM.

  5. #244
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX, USA
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    2,077

    Default Re: EFB options

    What I did, to be sure my other hives did not rob the infected ones, was harvest all honey for human use only, melt down all wax, scorch all woodware. Terra-pro was easy to get in 2013, and feed sugar water while they had that and redid their hive, thus expelling the remaining bactera. Same reason we put fresh swarms on sugar water and foundation, so they'll get rid of anything they are carrying.

    Any hive that robbed yours will also need treated.
    Stuck in Texas. Learning Permaculture in drought, flood and strange weather. The bees are still alive.

  6. #245
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    169

    Default Re: EFB options

    Found these photos on another forum, good example of


    European foulbrood

  7. #246

    Smile Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by username00101 View Post
    Found these photos on another forum, good example of


    European foulbrood
    Looks familiar. Sometimes even holes in cells, but no roping.

    I had several hives with brood disease symptoms in spring. Now nothing. This is very typical for my EFB (or whatever).

    I have shaken one big hive to cleaner looking combs, not foundations because I did not have any available at that moment. The queen has been changed and they have been reinforced with brood frames from other hives. Now looking good.

    One Mini-Plus hive had the most serious looking infection, and smell, I did nothing in spring. Killed the queen in June when I had ripe cells to give instead. After the new queen started they were getting along, but not expanding, and therefore one week ago I took actions: I put the queen with one egg frame downstairs (other frames extracted and empty) under the excluder, the rest of the frames and bees were left above excluder. I can send some pictures of the brood area later. The idea was to give cleaner combs, as it did not get any better by itself there must be pretty intense infection in the combs. After queen change there has been no smell anymore.

    No medication what so ever, no washing equipment. This has been my policy for 30 years.

  8. #247

    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    I can send some pictures of the brood area later.
    DSC04802.jpg
    The EFB infected Mini-Plus nuc is stronger now than the rest of them, and it is because I did not divide it for queen rearing purposes.

  9. #248
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: EFB options

    if you are experiencing true efb juhani (your cases are not confirmed with lab testing if i recall correctly), then you have a much less virulent strain than what i experienced here.

    so few brood survived to the capping stage such that the populations quickly dwindled to just a handful of bees with no chance of recovery.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #249

    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    if you are experiencing true efb juhani (your cases are not confirmed with lab testing if i recall correctly), then you have a much less virulent strain than what i experienced here.

    so few brood survived to the capping stage such that the populations quickly dwindled to just a handful of bees with no chance of recovery.
    You are right, I have only couple of times sended samples of AFB, they were negative. One time when an beekeeping veterinary made the test he also examined EFB, and found heaps of it. So much that he insisted that I have to have clinical symptoms, which I didīt, at that time many years ago.

  11. #250

    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    .

    One Mini-Plus hive had the most serious looking infection, and smell, I did nothing in spring. Killed the queen in June when I had ripe cells to give instead.
    Now that queen from the cell was lying dead in front of the hive, checked what is going on, and yep, they made a new one.
    This was a reaction to the disease?

  12. #251
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    This was a reaction to the disease?
    perhaps.

    "Surviving larvae will become adults with generally lower weight and delayed pupation when compared to their uninfected counterparts..."

    from: https://bee-health.extension.org/eur...ney-bee-brood/
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #252

    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    perhaps.

    "Surviving larvae will become adults with generally lower weight and delayed pupation when compared to their uninfected counterparts..."

    from: https://bee-health.extension.org/eur...ney-bee-brood/
    But remember it was a ripe cell I gave them, from a healthy hive. And the dead queen was normal size, in fact bigger than average,

  14. #253
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    But remember it was a ripe cell I gave them, from a healthy hive...
    ah, you are correct.

    just a guess here, but since efb is a gut microbe that competes for food, (similar to nosema), and if efb contaminated food is being fed to the queen, (whose nutritional requirements are high during egg laying), then perhaps the queen could become malnourished because of that competition for food.

    another guess would be that if a high percentage of worker brood was not making it to the capping stage, the colony might interpret that as a problem with the queen and attempt to replace her.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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