EFB options
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Thread: EFB options

  1. #1
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    Default EFB options

    I do a bunch of cutouts and I bring them to my home yard to monitor for a while before bringing them to my main out yard, just Incase anything unpleasant shows up. Good thing I do that, I’ve got one that is now showing classic EFB. Does not look like AFB. I did this cutout in March and they built back up ok, now filling 2 mediums nicely.
    I know others have dealt with this, my first thought is get some terra pro. How do I find a vet for that elusive VFD? If I can get it cleaned up, I’ve got some fresh queens coming ready soon to requeen.
    its just in the one hive, I have a second hive back there that’s inside a log. That one came home from the tree company about a month ago, and I don’t know it’s health since it’s inside a log. I was planning on doing a cutout on that one this weekend, and actually found my problem while getting things ready for that job.
    Mistakes are the best taechers

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Try this for locating a vet: https://www.hbvc.org/

  4. #3
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    Default Re: EFB options

    If it is only in one colony, my once bit twice shy advice would be to destroy the frames and scorch the boxes. Some people have been lucky in cleaning it up with Oxy Tet but it apparently often comes back. Though treated the bacteria can remain dormant in comb for close to two years. I wish I had been more aggressive or had diagnosed earlier!
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    Frank

  5. #4
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Very smart move to keep those bees separate during a quarantine period.

    (And if you've got a quarantine yard, treat it like one, too: separate gloves & tools, etc.)

    Having dealt with documented EFB in my own yard, I would act aggressively: I would do a double shook swarm, on to different equipment, followed by treatment. I would shook-swarm the bees first into old (but presumed uninvolved) boxes, or even ones just cobbed together for the event. Then a three days later shook-swarm them, again, into a new set of permanent, equipment.

    I would also treat the suspect hive and every hive in the same yard.

    I would destroy the equipment I discovered the EFB in, as well as the first set of boxes in the shook swarm series. Just take the modest economic hit of losing one round of good equipment and the interim equipment for the first shook swarm (which could a cardboard nuc box) over getting multiple sets of permanent equipment contaminated. I have a lot of stuff in storage - at least a hundred boxes, thousands of frames, etc., dozens of bases, tops, etc., which is contaminated. I don't know when/if I'll be ready to risk using it again.

    But I wouldn't do any of this without getting a positive result on one of the field test kits on the suspect hive. Because other things look like EFB.

    Good luck - I don't mean that sarcastically, at all. I really do hope it goes well for you. EFB is addressed far too casually, IMO. It's presence in a yard can become a chronic problem that takes a few years to work its way out, even with treatment. I am hoping that this, my third season since it was found here, will finally be the conclusive turning point. But my foraging weather is poor this year, so I may have a re-occurence.

    EFB sucks!

    Nancy

  6. #5
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Though treated the bacteria can remain dormant in comb for close to two years.
    Do you have a reference for this frank?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #6
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by enjambres View Post
    EFB sucks!
    understatement of the year nancy.

    i am scrambling at this time dealing with an outbreak. 8 multi-year colonies surviving off treatments have been euthanized. 3 others have been moved to a quarantine yard.

    i'm not sure where it came from, but discovered there are now at least 3 'new' beekeepers within flying distance of my yards with bees imported from out of the area, at least 2 of which have yet to get a colony through a winter. haven't made contact with the third one yet.

    quadruple dang. will update my thread when the dust settles, if it even does.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #7
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    Do you have a reference for this frank?
    I wish I had collected all my links. This one in second paragraph is the closest I found in a quick search re: survival time on comb. https://articles.extension.org/pages...oney-bee-brood

    Quite commonly references were to 7 months survival in honey and 18 months in "beebread". Recent studies show quite a few different sub types with wide variations in virulence confuses peoples reported experience with mellissococcus plutonius

    I believe both Flowerplanter and Enjambres have quite a collection of material and links on EFB
    Frank

  9. #8
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I wish I had collected all my links. This one in second paragraph is the closest I found in a quick search re: survival time on comb. https://articles.extension.org/pages...oney-bee-brood

    Quite commonly references were to 7 months survival in honey and 18 months in "beebread". Recent studies show quite a few different sub types with wide variations in virulence confuses peoples reported experience with mellissococcus plutonius

    I believe both Flowerplanter and Enjambres have quite a collection of material and links on EFB
    many thanks frank. good idea about saving the links. i've got 20+ hours pouring through what literature the searches bring up. there has been mention of the bacteria persisting in equipment but not on how long.

    perhaps this thread could serve as an archive for links if those who have are willing to post them here.

    currently trying to find an irradiation facility closer than pennsylvania if one exists.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #9
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    understatement of the year nancy.

    i am scrambling at this time dealing with an outbreak. 8 multi-year colonies surviving off treatments have been euthanized. 3 others have been moved to a quarantine yard.

    i'm not sure where it came from, but discovered there are now at least 3 'new' beekeepers within flying distance of my yards with bees imported from out of the area, at least 2 of which have yet to get a colony through a winter. haven't made contact with the third one yet.

    quadruple dang. will update my thread when the dust settles, if it even does.
    Oh how familiar this is.

    I have looked at options of trying to clean up and sanitize frames but that appears far more work than building new. Every bit of ones activity has apparent chances of putting more infected material into the surroundings. If the source of origin of the disease is not known, you may be only shoveling smoke! The uncertainty is the most discouraging part of the whole experience.
    Frank

  11. #10
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    The uncertainty is the most discouraging part of the whole experience.
    indeed.

    i'll own up to my part in this as far as the indiscriminate moving around of equipment, stores, and bees goes. i have always done a whole lot of that without consequence up until now.

    that, and the fact that i have all of my hives sitting closely and next to each other in nice neat rows, all facing the same direction and looking exactly the same.

    my losses were clumped in groups of 2 and 3 adjacent hives, indicating to me that drift was a big factor.

    i believe i am seeing the results of one of the more contagious and virulent strains of EFB. i wish i could get the strain typed here like they do in the u.k.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #11
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    Default Re: EFB options

    There was an interesting video from the National Honey Show. At one time England euthanized colonies and had low rates of efb. Once again getting rid of susceptible genetics. Once they started treating and salvaging, rates went up. Also there are different types. Are all bees equally resistant to all types? I suspect not. Message, stop moving bees around between regions.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: EFB options

    could this be the video you are referring to lharder?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0B9...ature=youtu.be

    (highly recommended viewing to anyone wanting to get up to speed on efb, and my starting point for further inquiry into some of the ground covered in the video)

    it turns out there are 35 different 'sequence types' of efb. the various types are differentiated from each other using a molecular genetic technique referred to as 'mlst', which stands for 'multi-locus sequence typing'.

    it appears that efb typing is being used to determine the course of action for remediation. choices include shook swarm, oxytetracylcline, or destruction (burning) depending on the efb type.

    preventative measures such as arranging apiaries to minimize drift and avoiding the mixing and matching of equipment/resources are also discussed.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #13
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Common-place beekeeping techniques of moving frames to equalize hives, making up splits and nucs from mixed hive sources, adding a frames of brood when coping with LW, or a queenless hive, not keeping all equipment segregated to a single colony's hive stack, and bringing in new colonies such as cut-outs and swarms are all way EFB spreads. And none of those are indicators of piss-poor beekeeping or even unskilled beekeeping.

    I am no longer keeping a full set of separate tools for each colony (since I've had no confirmed indication of EFB for a year.) But I have painted each hive a different color and I have a full set of equipment for each colony and now NEVER move any frames or boxes between hives. (That's how I inadvertently spread in the first year - equalizing brood and stores frames between hives in very early spring, before any problem was evident.)

    And I keep pollen patty on the hives until well into early summer (past fruit blossom and dandelion.)

    @Squarepeg, do you have lab confirmation, either from Beltsville or the field test kits? Are you having any success (or do you even want to considering your TF goals) locating a source of Oxytet? Oxytet stopped my active infection cold (in just 3 days), but it still left me with infected colonies and dirty boxes.

    And I'll say it, in case you feel the same way: I was ashamed and blamed myself and I agonized over whether to treat, or not. And I dithered too long over the decision - kept going back to the idea that once I needed to treat I'd always be have to keep going, or that I was perpetuating weak genetics. My view these days is: if you've got a confirmed case, just do shook swarms on to clean equipment and treat immediately and move on. In other words: don't dither. Your bees have acquired a treatable bacterial infection. The cure for active infection is Oxytet. The best way to reduce equipment losses and to prevent long-term chronic disease is to get them off the dirty combs and into clean boxes ASAP. And make sure you don't allow any swarming from an infected hive. Do whatever you have to do to prevent that, as a point of public health. Use extreme cross-contamination infection prevention program (clean tools and gloves for each hive, every time). Close your yard to any beekeeping visitors, or if you allow visits, lend them clothing and tools which stay in your yard. Find every yard within your foraging area and warm other beekeepers to BOLO for the signs. Don;t sell or'give away hives, nucs, or queens. Make no increase, unless forced to stop a swarm, so as to reduce as much as possible equipment with known, or even possible exposure to an outbreak that will nee irradiation, or other aggressive handling to rid it of EFB contamination, in the short run.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: EFB options

    many thanks for all that nancy, and also to those of you who took time to send pm's. it's times like these that being tapped into a first class community such as this one means everything.

    cliff notes version:

    positive field test by 'vita honeybee (european) foulbrood test kit'

    reported outbreak to state apiarist

    will provide state apiarist samples to run in his lab, as well as send some off to beltsville

    oxytet prescription obtained from dvm and filled

    self imposed strict quarantine, cancelled nuc orders

    euthanized colonies less than five deep frames of bees

    moved 3 infected but stronger colonies to a 'hospital' yard away from any known kept bees, getting their first round of oxytet tomorrow

    (more detailed version to be posted on my thread when i catch my breath)
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #15
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    could this be the video you are referring to lharder?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0B9...ature=youtu.be

    (highly recommended viewing to anyone wanting to get up to speed on efb, and my starting point for further inquiry into some of the ground covered in the video)

    it turns out there are 35 different 'sequence types' of efb. the various types are differentiated from each other using a molecular genetic technique referred to as 'mlst', which stands for 'multi-locus sequence typing'.

    it appears that efb typing is being used to determine the course of action for remediation. choices include shook swarm, oxytetracylcline, or destruction (burning) depending on the efb type.

    preventative measures such as arranging apiaries to minimize drift and avoiding the mixing and matching of equipment/resources are also discussed.

    Yes that is the one. Destruction would work for all types and would be the default tf option. Once it hits (its just a matter of time right?), I guess destruction and aggressive removal of contaminated hives, and decontamination of comb using our ionization facility would be my course of action. And of course robbing screens to reduce drift. Those I hope to put on earlier that later this year as soon as I can make them. Perhaps, requeening together with shaking onto good comb could be used, but would leave more lingering doubt in my mind. I would not use antibiotics as they make bees more susceptible to other infections such as Nosema. I am just starting to read papers by Nance Moran about bee gut microbiota. Not sure if I would want to disrupt that in my bees as in theory it could be a destroying a valuable resource.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    I am just starting to read papers by Nance Moran about bee gut microbiota. Not sure if I would want to disrupt that in my bees as in theory it could be a destroying a valuable resource.
    i also place a high value having the microbiota inside the cavity and including the colony not be disturbed once having reached a balanced and healthy ecosystem but,

    what might be the lesser of the evils?

    losing a microbiota and genetics that combined have seven winters survival and have produced average or above average honey crop,

    losing all of the microbiota and genetics after the colony reaches full collapse just because it happened to catch a tummy ache from it's neighbor,

    or insert human intervention into a system despite its having an exceptional track record over time in the hopes of preserving the genetics and or what microbiota survives the human intervention, in the case using a selective synthesized antibiotic?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #17
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    Default Re: EFB options

    here are a couple of short videos from about 8 years ago presented by dr. jamie ellis, the gahan endowed associate professor of entomology in the department of entomology and nematology at the university of florida.

    my take at this point in my review of the literature is that he is under-representing the impact of the disease at both colony and the apiary levels.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=05tCHtUyNHM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyia...layer_embedded
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #18
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    Default Re: EFB options

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0B9o4GHq7U

    National Honey Show UK , AFB/EFB Typing and CBPV. A worthwhile video. Deb
    Proverbs 16:24

  20. #19
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    Default Re: EFB options

    thanks deb, that link was provided in post #12.

    have you experienced efb yet?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  21. #20
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    Default Re: EFB options

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i also place a high value having the microbiota inside the cavity and including the colony not be disturbed once having reached a balanced and healthy ecosystem but,

    what might be the lesser of the evils?

    losing a microbiota and genetics that combined have seven winters survival and have produced average or above average honey crop,

    losing all of the microbiota and genetics after the colony reaches full collapse just because it happened to catch a tummy ache from it's neighbor,

    or insert human intervention into a system despite its having an exceptional track record over time in the hopes of preserving the genetics and or what microbiota survives the human intervention, in the case using a selective synthesized antibiotic?
    Mine wasn't a criticism sp. Just my own strategy. Destruction, isolation of frames, isolation of equipment, ionization of frames equipment, no nuc sales. I'm in general agreement, I assume my microbiota/genetics will be reasonably well represented by colonies not symptomatic and not destroyed.

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